England Saxons vs Ireland Wolfhounds 4:30 Jan 28

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

ok i just thought it was quite insulting tbh and kinda pi**ed me off. And it sounded to me like all the fans were singing it

To be fair though you are only annoyed because it was english people and you already decided a long time ago that all english people are arrogant. If a scotish crowd did that you would probably find it funny because they are hardly in a position to talk. Its nothing to do with their being english, and all crowds do things liek that as snoopy said, in most games the crowd nearest to an opposition player will, usually in good humour, take him to pieces. I just think you want to be annoyed because the crowd were english.

definitely a good thing your into rugby, as if you were at a football game you'd be hearing something along the lines of "ARE YOU CONNAUGHT IN DISGUISE" as a crowd song.

 

[Peat]

Burns' goal kicking wasn't that great. It wasn't bad by a long way, but I don't think he was getting the plaudits for it. He had a good game though, took the ball very flat and distributed well.
Garvey and Robson both good, as was Saull.
Monye and Armitage had decent games too. Spencer all right too. Everyone else was pretty forgettable though.

Irish scrum didn't lack bite, it lacked props.

This :lol: Why he didn't pick Hagan still escapes me. Thought Saull was anonymous and insecure in the tackle, but was watching in the pub with my friends so will be watching again. Waldrom and Gray did well too I thought. But yes, Garvey and the half-back pairing are the bits that went best - and I now want Spencer in the EPS.

Burns kicking wasn't great, but he can do better and if he played for England, another option is 10. Burns 12. Farrell with Farrell taking the kicks.


Yeah, I felt this. It just seemed like another case of England using a strong pack to bully their opposition. Easy to do at this level, since England have the player depth to field stronger A teams, but it doesn't exactly prime players wanting to make the main squad with the talents needed to make the step up. We still have issues at the breakdown.

Of course we had issues at the breakdown. Ireland fielded a pack with several very strong counter-ruckers - Henry, Muldoon, McCarthy and Varley - while we fielded a back-row of an out of form lock, a fairly one-dimensional carrying 8 and a 7. It was never going to work. Tom Johnson and Jamie Gibson should have started. Then we'd have had a shot.

A-level games are a nebulous beast. I'm grateful they exist, and enjoyed watching it, but they're rarely the best. I'm slightly concerned that England's centre partnership didn't work, but that's about it - I'd be concerned about a lot of the rest of it, but kinda knew it.

 

[big ginger 8]

Was a bad attempt at a joke no one in their right mind would let Archer near international rugby again.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

A-level games are a nebulous beast. I'm grateful they exist, and enjoyed watching it, but they're rarely the best. I'm slightly concerned that England's centre partnership didn't work, but that's about it - I'd be concerned about a lot of the rest of it, but kinda knew it.

The standard of mid season A games is well below Heineken Cup level and is below the Premiership and Pro 12 too in my opinion. In terms of intensity, it's right up there with an Anglo-Welsh Cup or B&I Cup game. It's only purpose is to get unfit players who may make the 6 Nations squads some game time.

As such, I wouldn't be concerned about the performance of people like Hopper in the centre. True, he wasn't up to much but he's performed better in higher standard, higher pressure games in the Heineken Cup and Premiership. I'd read far more into how he fared in those games than in a game involving hastily brought together sub standard England and Ireland teams.

Despite saying that, while I'm not overly concerned by his selection, picking Stephen Archer was a joke. Good luck to the guy, he tries his best but he's not up to it. He's done nothing at all to deserve a spot in the team. In the Ireland pecking order, I'd go for Mike Ross, Tom Court, Tony Buckley, Jamie Hagan, Declan Fitzpatrick, John Andress, Adam Macklin and Simon Shawe before Munster's second choice tighthead. Maybe Peter Stringer would fancy a go at 3. I'd pick him ahead of Archer too.

 

[big ginger 8]

I wonder would you go as far as picking Maguire over him at least he looks scary.

 

[Peat]

The standard of mid season A games is well below Heineken Cup level and is below the Premiership and Pro 12 too in my opinion. In terms of intensity, it's right up there with an Anglo-Welsh Cup or B&I Cup game. It's only purpose is to get unfit players who may make the 6 Nations squads some game time.

As such, I wouldn't be concerned about the performance of people like Hopper in the centre. True, he wasn't up to much but he's performed better in higher standard, higher pressure games in the Heineken Cup and Premiership. I'd read far more into how he fared in those games than in a game involving hastily brought together sub standard England and Ireland teams.

Despite saying that, while I'm not overly concerned by his selection, picking Stephen Archer was a joke. Good luck to the guy, he tries his best but he's not up to it. He's done nothing at all to deserve a spot in the team. In the Ireland pecking order, I'd go for Mike Ross, Tom Court, Tony Buckley, Jamie Hagan, Declan Fitzpatrick, John Andress, Adam Macklin and Simon Shawe before Munster's second choice tighthead. Maybe Peter Stringer would fancy a go at 3. I'd pick him ahead of Archer too.

I would pay so much money to see Stringer at tighthead.

Ross and Court were with the senior squad, Buckley and Andress weren't available due to playing in England, Fitzpatrick was injured. I'm not sure I would take Macklin ahead of him, there's an argument to be made but its pretty tenuous and while I would take Shawe ahead of him, Shawe will never be international standard while, at the risk of repeating the Buckley argument, Archer still has a good few seasons in which to learn how to scrummage. Obviously you know what I think on Hagan - but while it was a bad decision, it wasn't completely off.

And it is the hasty preparation that makes me value A games so much - you get to see how quickly the player can adapt to new partnerships, coaching, tactics and situations. No matter how much time we give to squads, this will always be a factor in who becomes an international player and who doesn't. Players who shine at club level but go silent at A level, I start looking at what's happening at his club that's making him look good. It isolates the talent of the player from the talent of the team. The intensity was definitely higher than B&I cup if you ask me. I'm not that bothered by Hopper, as he's a long way off of England quality, but I expected him and Twelvetrees to make more of an impact. But they couldn't, and the England set-up should look at that. I need to watch it again, but I'm idly wondering if Twelvetrees left some of his confidence behind in Belfast.

 

[big ginger 8]

It is annoying how there wasn't a single unit that had played together before.

Front-row: Connacht, Munster, Munster
Second-row: Ulster, Connacht
Back-row: Connacht, Leinster, Ulster
Half-backs: Leinster, Munster
Centers: Ulster, Leinster
Back-three: Munster, Connacht, Leinster

Could have at least got a half-back pairing thats used to each other: Boss+Madigan (preferable) / O'Leary+Keatley but no they had it the other way round.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I'm idly wondering if Twelvetrees left some of his confidence behind in Belfast.

My honest take on it is that he's seriously overhyped.

Ireland lack for scrum halves. Whenever a young guy shows some promise, he's immediately lauded as being better than he really is since we desperately want him to be good. I give you exhibit A, Connor Murray. We're just as bad at lauding tighthead props after one good performance. Over here we think Mike Ross is world class. I see a decent prop who can keep a scrum fairly steady and not do a whole lot else (although he's getting better around the park to be fair to him).

In much the same way, England lack centres and opensides. Listening to the Rugby Club a few years back, you'd swear that Anthony Allen was the second coming of Christ. Matt Tait was another. Plodders like Jon Clarke and Shontayne Hape have been bigged up at various times over the last few seasons only to be chewed up and spat out. Billy Twelvetrees is the latest example. He's not a bad player but he's 22 or 23 and has a lot of development ahead of him. Give him time. He'd be nowhere near the Wales or Ireland team if he was from either of those countries. Similarly, last weeks hyping of Andy Saull as a top class player was laughable. Pat Sanderson tried desperately hard to say Saull is average in the nicest possible way but head cheerleader Dewi Morris was having none of it!

For my money, the only decent England centres at the moment are Jordan Turner Hall (even then, he's nothing special) and Manu Tuilagi.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Gordon D'arcy, Fergus McFadden and Paddy Wallace are all better than him. Andrew Trimble has partnered Brian O'Driscoll in a left/right centre combination and played pretty well. At times Keith Earls has played 12 (for Ireland A in the Churchill Cup). Jonny Sexton has played 12 in a World Cup warm up. All of the above would be ahead of Twelvetrees. I'd have him neck and neck with Nevin Spence even though Spence is primarily a 13. Twelvetrees isn't as good a long term talent as Ulstermen Chris Farrell and Luke Marshall nor is he as talented as Munster's JJ Hanrahan- to be fair, he's ahead of those three at present but won't be two years from now. Maybe I'm being harsh but the only Irish province he'd start for is Connacht (because he's not as good as Munster's Lifeimi Mafi either).

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

My honest take on it is that he's seriously overhyped.

Ireland lack for scrum halves. Whenever a young guy shows some promise, he's immediately lauded as being better than he really is since we desperately want him to be good. I give you exhibit A, Connor Murray. We're just as bad at lauding tighthead props after one good performance. Over here we think Mike Ross is world class. I see a decent prop who can keep a scrum fairly steady and not do a whole lot else (although he's getting better around the park to be fair to him).

In much the same way, England lack centres and opensides. Listening to the Rugby Club a few years back, you'd swear that Anthony Allen was the second coming of Christ. Matt Tait was another. Plodders like Jon Clarke and Shontayne Hape have been bigged up at various times over the last few seasons only to be chewed up and spat out. Billy Twelvetrees is the latest example. He's not a bad player but he's 22 or 23 and has a lot of development ahead of him. Give him time. He'd be nowhere near the Wales or Ireland team if he was from either of those countries. Similarly, last weeks hyping of Andy Saull as a top class player was laughable. Pat Sanderson tried desperately hard to say Saull is average in the nicest possible way but head cheerleader Dewi Morris was having none of it!

For my money, the only decent England centres at the moment are Jordan Turner Hall (even then, he's nothing special) and Manu Tuilagi.

For my money Brad Baritt is playing quality rugby and could be of international quality if given the light of day. In my opinion he's twice the player JTH is.

 

[big ginger 8]

I wouldn't go as far as saying Earls is better but agree with most of what snoop is saying (except Ross being overhyped) I also must say I rate McSharry very highly so I wouldn't say he'd be guaranteed gametime there. He can console himself with the fact that he's better than Danny Barnes.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Gordon D'arcy, Fergus McFadden and Paddy Wallace are all better than him. Andrew Trimble has partnered Brian O'Driscoll in a left/right centre combination and played pretty well. At times Keith Earls has played 12 (for Ireland A in the Churchill Cup). Jonny Sexton has played 12 in a World Cup warm up. All of the above would be ahead of Twelvetrees. I'd have him neck and neck with Nevin Spence even though Spence is primarily a 13. Twelvetrees isn't as good a long term talent as Ulstermen Chris Farrell and Luke Marshall nor is he as talented as Munster's JJ Hanrahan- to be fair, he's ahead of those three at present but won't be two years from now. Maybe I'm being harsh but the only Irish province he'd start for is Connacht (because he's not as good as Munster's Lifeimi Mafi either).

Actually, on second reading that is an incredibly one-eyed reading.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Gordon D'arcy, Fergus McFadden and Paddy Wallace are all better than him. Andrew Trimble has partnered Brian O'Driscoll in a left/right centre combination and played pretty well. At times Keith Earls has played 12 (for Ireland A in the Churchill Cup). Jonny Sexton has played 12 in a World Cup warm up. All of the above would be ahead of Twelvetrees. I'd have him neck and neck with Nevin Spence even though Spence is primarily a 13. Twelvetrees isn't as good a long term talent as Ulstermen Chris Farrell and Luke Marshall nor is he as talented as Munster's JJ Hanrahan- to be fair, he's ahead of those three at present but won't be two years from now. Maybe I'm being harsh but the only Irish province he'd start for is Connacht (because he's not as good as Munster's Lifeimi Mafi either).

You're being incredibly harsh on 36 there. Sexton at 12 was a poorly thought out idea to try and get himself and ROG on the pitch at the same time. He certainly isn't a 12 in the eyes of most rational coaches. D'arcy is in decline, while McFadden still hasn't been able to fully oust him for either Leinster or Ireland. Keith Earls is a pretty average centre and certainly not a 12. Trimble hasn't played there in years either. My opinion is that if Twelvetrees were Irish he'd probably be playing provincial rugby and getting in Heineken Cup 23's. I think he'd have a good chance of getting in the Munster starting line up and would be very much in the mix up at Ulster. He would have played for the Wolfhounds the other day, so he'd be in the exact same position as he is with England now imo.

Not as good as McFadden, O'Malley and Cave, but around the same standard as the other Irish centres.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Keith Earls a better 12 than Twelvetreees ??? really ???

Yes.

Forgot about Barritt. He's a better 12 than Earls but he's hardly top class.

@HenryChinaski
It's fine if you disagree. I wouldn't call it one eyed, merely a difference of opinion. I'd take Danny Care, Ben Youngs and Joe Simpson at scrum half before I'd pick Connor Murray or any Irish 9. Of the B&I Lions nations, I'd also select Chris Cusiter, Mike Blair, Rory Lawson, Mike Phillips, Dwayne Peel, Tavis Knoyle and Rhys Webb before picking an Irish scrum half. That's hardly the view of somebody who's one eyed.

In the same way that I disregard the current crop of Irish scrumhalves, I disregard the current batch of England centres.

EDIT - I forgot Luke Fitzgerald. He's a better centre than Twelvetrees.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yes.

Forgot about Barritt. He's a better 12 than Earls but he's hardly top class.

@HenryChinaski
It's fine if you disagree. I wouldn't call it one eyed, merely a difference of opinion. I'd take Danny Care, Ben Youngs and Joe Simpson at scrum half before I'd pick Connor Murray or any Irish 9. Of the B&I Lions nations, I'd also select Chris Cusiter, Mike Blair, Rory Lawson, Mike Phillips, Dwayne Peel, Tavis Knoyle and Rhys Webb before picking an Irish scrum half. That's hardly the view of somebody who's one eyed.

In the same way that I disregard the current crop of Irish scrumhalves, I disregard the current batch of England centres.

EDIT - I forgot Luke Fitzgerald. He's a better centre than Twelvetrees.

Yeah, I know you're not one-eyed and you don't think you need to prove it, I guess I just don't agree that connaught is the only irish team in which he would feature. He's better than that, although yesterday did not show it. Otherwise, I would completely agree we lack quality centres and opensides

EDIT: But then, there is a continuing problem in English rugby where because we tend to have a number of options - larger player pool and all that - we don't tend to push players with talent all the way and get everything we can from them. For example that Ireland have squeezed every ounce of potential from O Collaghan simply because there haven't always been other options. I don't know why I'm saying this as its hardly a good excuse...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Twelvetrees is overrated by the English then he's underrated by everyone else.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I just don't see anything about Twelvetrees that marks him out as exceptional. He's a competent kicker, competent passer, competent defender annd competent attacker. He's a useful, all round club player. Earls' problem is that he's a good tackler but constantly gets caught out of position (when playing 13). At 12 he wouldn't have that problem, he'd just hit everything in front of him. Earls has a great step in traffic and is physically very strong. In confined spaces, he's an instinctive player. If he improves his passing, he could be an excellent 12. As is, he's a very good winger and solid 13. His flaws are similar to Fergus McFadden but he has the talent to be a lot better than his Leinster counterpart with good coaching. Joe Schmidt has ironed a lot of the kinks out of McFadden's game.

 

[Peat]

Say whut?!

Ok, this is weird.

Anyone saying Twelvetrees is good enough for England is wrong, but that is simply due to consistency. It is not down to skillset. At his best, Twelvetrees rips teams apart. He is a very good prospect. He has a giant boot, his goal kicking was immaculate for a quite prolonged period last season, he has very good distribution and possesses the full range of options in attack - he is big enough to go direct, has a good step, and is quick enough to take the outside. He doesn't always say this, because his mentality isn't there yet (and may never be) and he rarely plays enough games in a row to be consistent, but I honestly don't see how anyone's watched him a few times can question his talent.

At Ulster he'd be number 22 when fit every time. He's a better 12 and equal 13 to Spence at least. He is at least an equal prospect to Marshall and Farrell and honestly think he could be a little better. The idea that Trimble is as good a centre as him seems very laughable. And while Mincer is a better HEC centre, and I think has been underutilised at international level, he does have issues there due to being the size of a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Twelvetrees won't have those issues if he irons things out. He is obviously no Darren 'Sheet Lightening' Cave but then no one is.

Going round the rest of the provinces - he's better than Mafi, Earls hasn't really played much at 12 recently, haven't seen Fitzgerald at 12 for a long time... Sexton at 12, oh my giddy aunt, not a good idea. Although that's not the point really. The point is Twelvetrees has the raw potential and skillsets to be as good as McAlister or Henson. Whether his mind propels him high enough remains to be seen, but it won't be for lack of talent. I honestly don't get how you don't see that.

As for the rest of England's centres - Allen is a very good player who might be too small for the top level but we should really know more conclusively, Matthew Tait has become another of England's injury-plagued and probably should have been a winger anyway, Barritt might be too slow and one-dimensional but we really know more conclusively, Hape is really, really shat and everyone knew it bar Johnson & Co... uhm, who else? Oh and Sky it seems. Honestly, if you're going to take Sky seriously when it comes to English rugby, that's your own look out. Everyone's a god there. Allen and Barritt are both better than Turner-Hall though, who isn't that good. Not denying we have a serious deficit at centre, particularly inside-centre, but that has nothing to do with Twelvetrees' potential - he has all the goods below the top 4 inches, and I am praying very hard that a prolonged run at Glaws will show/develop that top 4 inches.

 

[Luimneach18]

Yes.

Forgot about Barritt. He's a better 12 than Earls but he's hardly top class.

@HenryChinaski
It's fine if you disagree. I wouldn't call it one eyed, merely a difference of opinion. I'd take Danny Care, Ben Youngs and Joe Simpson at scrum half before I'd pick Connor Murray or any Irish 9. Of the B&I Lions nations, I'd also select Chris Cusiter, Mike Blair, Rory Lawson, Mike Phillips, Dwayne Peel, Tavis Knoyle and Rhys Webb before picking an Irish scrum half. That's hardly the view of somebody who's one eyed.

In the same way that I disregard the current crop of Irish scrumhalves, I disregard the current batch of England centres.

EDIT - I forgot Luke Fitzgerald. He's a better centre than Twelvetrees.

funny how you think conor murray is so bad yet if he plays amazing this six nations you will be saying hes amazing at the end of the day he hasnt had a proper run of games for ireland so dont be so quick to judge the boy yet hes only 22 and you will see he will be a great scrum half for ireland and everyone slagging earls i seem to forget he was the top try scorer at the rwc and scored against wales in the quarter, same with earls if he played amazing this six nations every1 would be praising him make your mind up people, damn these leinster fans annoy me sometimes ..

 

[Me 1]

funny how you think conor murray is so bad yet if he plays amazing this six nations you will be saying hes amazing at the end of the day he hasnt had a proper run of games for ireland so dont be so quick to judge the boy yet hes only 22 and you will see he will be a great scrum half for ireland and everyone slagging earls i seem to forget he was the top try scorer at the rwc and scored against wales in the quarter, same with earls if he played amazing this six nations every1 would be praising him make your mind up people, damn these leinster fans annoy me sometimes ..

Ashton and Clerc were the top try scorers, unless you mean Ireland's top try scorer