• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

England Rugby 2018/19 Thread

So I'd rather look at how players did in their positions and whether they should be kept around for the 6N's than think about the RWC, because there are a few players pushing for spots after the AI's and I'd like to see them in a more competitive environment with a trophy on the line. While the AI's are entertaining, they don't quite have the same intensity and stakes as the 6N's.

LHP: Hepburn struggled against S.A and was part of the poor Japan start. He also didn't impress massively off the bench. Moon on the other hand took his chance and played extremely well. He was composed and secure in the scrum. He gave away only one penalty against Japan all Autumn and made 37 tackles missing 6 (3 against NZ). I think Genge and Vunipola when fit are above both, but Moon is a solid number 3 and I wouldn't mind him in the match 23 or even starting. Bit of depth is nice and just need Mako and Genge fit and playing well.
HK: George and Hartley competing for No.1 and for me it depends if you think we need Hartley's leadership. If you ignore NZ game with Retallick, then George's lineouts were fine. Lack of a 3rd option is a worry with no one picked beyond training camps or the wider squad. Taylor is probably best of the rest, but really needs some consistent game time after his long injury. LCD also a good back up, but not in the same league as George and Hartley.
THP: Big worry for me personally. Sinckler played excellently and should be no.1, though still worry about his temper. Williams was pretty average though and with Cole (aka penalty machine) as the only other real option it doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence.
LK: Still got depth here. Lawes played well mostly (ignore the ridiculous pass against NZ) and after S.A Itoje sorted out most of his silly penalties. Ewels looks like a reliable back up, and may be more in contention after this. Kruis played ok, but I still think he's lost some of his form that he had previously. With Launchbury coming back, I honestly think this position should be picked based on the opposition as there are 4-5 reliable players who will all do the job well, but all have different strengths.
FLK: Underhill was fantastic and hopefully will continue to develop. Curry looked good and I would be great to see him more regularly. Shields struggled at the start, but improved rapidly. At this stage I think Robshaw's days are numbered. However we need Curry and Underhill to stay fit. Hill was a waste against Japan coming on for only 5 minutes, but hopefully got something out of the training camps.
No.8: Wilson was fantastic and hopefully he's dislodged Hughes in the pecking order. I think he's definitely above Simmonds and should be back up for a fully fit Billy or above an unfit Billy who's just returned from injury. Mercer showed glimpses and was unlucky that England started so poorly against Japan. However he is one for the future and like Hill hopefully has benefited from the training camps.
SH: This is my biggest worry. Youngs is slow and limits the attack. Care is erratic at best and Wigs while reliable is getting older and won't give teams a surprise like Care or Youngs might. Robson doesn't seem to be even close to being considered, so I guess it will be Youngs to start and hope he finds his old form and for me Wigs as sub.
FH: Farrell played pretty well I thought, though I reckon Ford and Cips are better for the attack. However after this autumn with Te'o, I think Faz might stay at 10 for the 6N's. This position depends greatly on who is picked in midfield. If Te'o then Faz starts, if Faz in midfield then Ford.
IC: Te'o was just god damn awful (I know people might be bored of me saying this, so I'll back up with a few stats) 17 tackles with 6 missed, so over a third. S.A 8 runs for 4 metres with no breaks or defenders beaten, NZ 4 runs for 9 metres with no breaks or defenders beaten. Also apparently didn't pass once against NZ according to ESPN (if the stats are wrong it's their fault). Aus 13 runs for 19 metres with 1 clean break and 3 defenders beaten. Those stats are just shocking. Honestly I don't see him working at 12 right now and he needs to prove his form at club level to be even remotely considered again. Lozowski struggled in his game, but I think he too is one for the future and this WC is too soon for him.
OC: Slade was a mixed bag as he's always been with some nice touches ruined by some awful moments. He's definitely below a fit JJ and I think Manu will be above easily if he stays fit. Nowell is another player who needs to be played consistently in one position and I think he's similar to Daly in that there are better people who play solely in one position than him.
WG: May is first name on the team sheet for me and the only one if a definite position. Nowell is similar to his time at OC, in that he hasn't really shined anywhere. Ashton played well and showed he's still got skill. Would like to see more of his defence though. Cokanasiga was fantastic in his two games and if probably the dark horse for the squad now as he offers something only Manu really offers as well.
FB: Daly...great player but is becoming jack of all trades, master of none. Not secure under the high ball and it will be a real weakness against teams like Ireland. With Watson injured I think we have to stick with Brown for the WC as not securing the high ball will cost you territory and lose you games. TBH May looked more confident under the high ball than Daly.

Summary thoughts: England have made quite a bit of progress and started to look like a team that can adapt their play and have moved on from the tactics that were exposed earlier in the year. Personally attack is still a worry as I think it's far too predictable at times and Youngs is too slow to exploit opportunities. Discipline has been better, but still needs to improve. I want to see some real consistency in performances during the 6N's. Even if we don't win I want to be at least competing with every team and not looking like we've taken our foot off the gas as we did against NZ and Aus before half time and at the start with Japan. Play like NZ and go for the kill regardless of who you are up against. EJ also needs to settle on his centres and back row now and stick with it. There is no more time for experimenting and players like Curry and Underhill needs as much experience as they can get.
 
Imagine if Burgess had been managed properly; he could probably have been a world class 12 for England by now.
Or we'd have been spared 3 years of debate about the 6 shirt; had 2 big, world class operators in the backrow; and been more willing to look at more genuine options at OSF without being worried about balance.
I know the feeling at the moment there are very few places with a clear front runner and the few players who are probably definite can play in multiple positions. I think May is the only certainty in one position. Purely personal, but with Manu's injuries and thinking about impact I would start JJ. I think you want JJ to keep the defence tight at the start and Manu to benefit from the tired open play later. I don't think JJ is a good impact sub, but more of a starter.
For me, the JJ / Tuilagi debate works equally well both ways.
On the one hand, JJ is comfortably the better defender - but he needs other people to make him a little space to operate in on attack - and therefore the better player during the tighter phases earlier on in a match; whilst Manu can come on and change the nature of the game with his impact off the bench.
Alternatively, the idea of defending Manu for 60 minutes, and then facing JJ's speed with tired legs, must fill defence coaches with dread. Manu's also more capable of making something from nothing, vital to get the score-board ticking over in the first place. JJ also offers greater variety off the bench, as he covers wing perfectly well - especially if Daly starts on a wing, and can shift to FB if that's the necessary change.

Personally, and at this moment in time; I'd start Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi, and bring JJ off the bench, as the best balanced mid-field we can put out; whilst starting JJ necessitates Te'o at IC, which means that Mr Undroppable has to play 10 - which is a notably weaker midfield in all aspects.
 
Last edited:
The idea of turning him into a Nonu type 12 isn't gonna happen, which I think was Jones' original intention. Certainly not in time for next year. He's better off just concentrating on staying fit.
 
The Ford Faz debate is endless, but it's clear Ford's more effective when the game breaks up. Sub seems a perfect role for him.

Given Binny and Manu's injury histories it would be daft to build a starting XV around them and there are arguably better all round players in their positions anyway. But those 2 can change games. Unleashing them for the last half hour against tiring legs when games are decided might be the best use of them anyway and if you're doing that why not go the whole hog and pick a starting XV to keep us in it for 50 with a bench designed to trott on and cause maximum havoc. Something like:

Genge
Hartley
Sinckler
Kruis
Launchbury
Underhill
Curry
Wilson
Youngs
Farrell
May
Te'o (yes I know, but he's solid enough)
Joseph
Cokanasiga
Watson

Vunipola M
George
Williams I guess. Sinck would be better suited here, but I think he's the clear starter now.
Itoje
Vunipola B
Care
Ford
Tuilagi

I don't think too many teams could take the mickey out of that starting XV. Lot of pressure on Faz as only playmaker, but I reckon he can take it and Ford's on the bench if needs be. If the game's up for grabs, no team in the world would fancy seeing that bench pouring on.

A lot of this is dependent on how several players come back from serious injury.
 
Is there any way of playing Faz at 10 which doesn't involve Teo at 12? I'm for Ford-Farrell all the way personally but if we are going to drop Ford to the bench full time what are our other options? Cos Teo is shite...
 
Is there any way of playing Faz at 10 which doesn't involve Teo at 12? I'm for Ford-Farrell all the way personally but if we are going to drop Ford to the bench full time what are our other options? Cos Teo is shite...
Loz seems to be the front runner for a lot of people, but personally I just don't think he's international standard. He didn't impress against Japan and I don't think he's ever really impressed in an England shirt apart from his short stint off the bench against Argentina last year.

Personally I'd like to see Tuilagi/JJ given a go. I'm not saying it's gonna fix everything or that it's my first choice (I'd go Ford, Faz, Tuilagi) but I do think it's worth a shot. Could be something special if it went well.
 
Is there any way of playing Faz at 10 which doesn't involve Teo at 12? I'm for Ford-Farrell all the way personally but if we are going to drop Ford to the bench full time what are our other options? Cos Teo is shite...
With EJ?
No.
He's always had an obsession with Teo and him not really looking at any other 12 (bar Farrell) even with the amount of time Teo has spent on the sidelines shows EJs thoughts towards 12.
Loz and Francis got a handful of appearances between them but mostly when Teo and Farrell were unavailable.
 
For me i like the idea of.
1 mako
2 george
3 sinkler
4 itoje
5 lawes
6 underhill
7 curry
8 Billy
9 Youngs (best of a bad bunch)
10 ford
11 may
12 faz
13 manu
14 daly
15 brown

16 hartley
17 genge(happily surprised with moon)
18 williams (not the bestbut dont want pen machine cole)
19 launchbury
20 wilson
21 care
22 JJ
23 cockanasiga/watson

Bring ford off for manu and bring joe on for brown.

Go from power 13 and pace 14 to pace 13 power 14. Although daly vs watson to start and the loser could end up being outside the 23 given joe offers something different.

May has nailed himself to that 11 shirt.

Daly vs Watson is a tough one, both rapid, both have a great step and can cover 15.

Daly covers 13 too but watson is a natural winger not a converted 13.

Thoughts?
 
U20s training squad
Whole lot of senior experience in this lot:

Forwards:

Ollie Adkins (Gloucester), Josh Basham (Durham University), Will Capon (Bristol Bears), Richard Capstick (Exeter Chiefs), Andy Christie (Saracens), Alex Coles (Northampton Saints), Nic Dolly (Sale Sharks), Ben Donnell (London Irish), James Dun (Bristol Bears), Taylor Gough (Leicester Tigers), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors), Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Jon Kpoku (Saracens), Samson Ma'asi (Northampton Saints), Tom Marshall (Newcastle Falcons), Kai Owen (Worcester Warriors), Alfie Petch (Exeter Chiefs), Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks), James Scott (Worcester Warriors), Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs), Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Willis (Wasps).

Backs:

Tom De Glanville (Bath), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), Connor Doherty (Sale Sharks), Reece Dunn (Gloucester), Ollie Fox (Yorkshire Carnegie), Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers), Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish), Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons), Luke James (Sale Sharks), Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors), Sam Maunder (Exeter Chiefs), Cadan Murley (Harlequins), Cam Nordli-Kelemeti (Newcastle Falcons), Cam Redpath (Sale Sharks), Arron Reed (Sale Sharks), Tom Seabrook (Gloucester), Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints), Will Simonds (Wasps), Manu Vunipola (Saracens), Gus Warr (Sale Sharks), Kieran Wilkinson (Sale Sharks).
 
U20s training squad
Whole lot of senior experience in this lot:

Forwards:

Ollie Adkins (Gloucester), Josh Basham (Durham University), Will Capon (Bristol Bears), Richard Capstick (Exeter Chiefs), Andy Christie (Saracens), Alex Coles (Northampton Saints), Nic Dolly (Sale Sharks), Ben Donnell (London Irish), James Dun (Bristol Bears), Taylor Gough (Leicester Tigers), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors), Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Jon Kpoku (Saracens), Samson Ma'asi (Northampton Saints), Tom Marshall (Newcastle Falcons), Kai Owen (Worcester Warriors), Alfie Petch (Exeter Chiefs), Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks), James Scott (Worcester Warriors), Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs), Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Willis (Wasps).

Backs:

Tom De Glanville (Bath), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), Connor Doherty (Sale Sharks), Reece Dunn (Gloucester), Ollie Fox (Yorkshire Carnegie), Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers), Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish), Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons), Luke James (Sale Sharks), Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors), Sam Maunder (Exeter Chiefs), Cadan Murley (Harlequins), Cam Nordli-Kelemeti (Newcastle Falcons), Cam Redpath (Sale Sharks), Arron Reed (Sale Sharks), Tom Seabrook (Gloucester), Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints), Will Simonds (Wasps), Manu Vunipola (Saracens), Gus Warr (Sale Sharks), Kieran Wilkinson (Sale Sharks).

Good thing now is that it seems premiership teams are more open to playing younger players sooner. I recognise more names than I have previously. For a while it seemed like players who made an impact at u20's went missing for a few years until they hit their mid twenties.
 
Loz seems to be the front runner for a lot of people, but personally I just don't think he's international standard. He didn't impress against Japan and I don't think he's ever really impressed in an England shirt apart from his short stint off the bench against Argentina last year.

Personally I'd like to see Tuilagi/JJ given a go. I'm not saying it's gonna fix everything or that it's my first choice (I'd go Ford, Faz, Tuilagi) but I do think it's worth a shot. Could be something special if it went well.

Lozowski's had nowhere near the same amount of chances that Slade has but has typically done well/made an impact when he's had the odd chance.

Fair enough he didn't impress against Japan, but no-one really did and while one of his missed tackles led to a try, he also saved a certain try with another.

Slade's now had a good opportunity to impress and really hasn't taken it. 6 starts in 7 games was an ideal opportunity to press a claim that few players get under Eddie.
 
U20s training squad
Whole lot of senior experience in this lot:

Forwards:

Ollie Adkins (Gloucester), Josh Basham (Durham University), Will Capon (Bristol Bears), Richard Capstick (Exeter Chiefs), Andy Christie (Saracens), Alex Coles (Northampton Saints), Nic Dolly (Sale Sharks), Ben Donnell (London Irish), James Dun (Bristol Bears), Taylor Gough (Leicester Tigers), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors), Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Jon Kpoku (Saracens), Samson Ma'asi (Northampton Saints), Tom Marshall (Newcastle Falcons), Kai Owen (Worcester Warriors), Alfie Petch (Exeter Chiefs), Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks), James Scott (Worcester Warriors), Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs), Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Willis (Wasps).

Backs:

Tom De Glanville (Bath), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), Connor Doherty (Sale Sharks), Reece Dunn (Gloucester), Ollie Fox (Yorkshire Carnegie), Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers), Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish), Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons), Luke James (Sale Sharks), Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors), Sam Maunder (Exeter Chiefs), Cadan Murley (Harlequins), Cam Nordli-Kelemeti (Newcastle Falcons), Cam Redpath (Sale Sharks), Arron Reed (Sale Sharks), Tom Seabrook (Gloucester), Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints), Will Simonds (Wasps), Manu Vunipola (Saracens), Gus Warr (Sale Sharks), Kieran Wilkinson (Sale Sharks).
I know alot of names here to say its under 20, especially looking forward to seeing rusi tuima,

Also curious about manu vunipola, whats his position/relation to others. Does he combine the injury proneness of billy vunipola and manu tuiagi meaning we will see him once in his career? :)
 
I know alot of names here to say its under 20, especially looking forward to seeing rusi tuima,

Also curious about manu vunipola, whats his position/relation to others. Does he combine the injury proneness of billy vunipola and manu tuiagi meaning we will see him once in his career? :)

Bet the England physios shuddered when they saw his name.
 
Believe it or not, I think Manu Vunipola is a fly half.
 
Sam Burgess on Twitter:

I seem to be getting a few tweets regarding the Rugby WC in 2015....Still. If people actually rewatched the games I participated in You will see I added to the team. What cost us an early exit was individual egos and selfish players not following our leader. Which ....

Essentially cost the coach and other great men their jobs. Tournaments are not won by the coaching staff or one player. It takes a commitment from the full group. I guarantee you this, I was committed but others had their own agendas. I have fond memories of my time in RU

And some great friends. One day I will tell my side of the story but for now I love watching @EnglandRugby and cannot wait to see them as they prepare for the 2019 WC in Japan.
 
U20s training squad
Whole lot of senior experience in this lot:

Forwards:

Ollie Adkins (Gloucester), Josh Basham (Durham University), Will Capon (Bristol Bears), Richard Capstick (Exeter Chiefs), Andy Christie (Saracens), Alex Coles (Northampton Saints), Nic Dolly (Sale Sharks), Ben Donnell (London Irish), James Dun (Bristol Bears), Taylor Gough (Leicester Tigers), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors), Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Jon Kpoku (Saracens), Samson Ma'asi (Northampton Saints), Tom Marshall (Newcastle Falcons), Kai Owen (Worcester Warriors), Alfie Petch (Exeter Chiefs), Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks), James Scott (Worcester Warriors), Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs), Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Willis (Wasps).

Backs:

Tom De Glanville (Bath), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), Connor Doherty (Sale Sharks), Reece Dunn (Gloucester), Ollie Fox (Yorkshire Carnegie), Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers), Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish), Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons), Luke James (Sale Sharks), Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors), Sam Maunder (Exeter Chiefs), Cadan Murley (Harlequins), Cam Nordli-Kelemeti (Newcastle Falcons), Cam Redpath (Sale Sharks), Arron Reed (Sale Sharks), Tom Seabrook (Gloucester), Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints), Will Simonds (Wasps), Manu Vunipola (Saracens), Gus Warr (Sale Sharks), Kieran Wilkinson (Sale Sharks).

I recognise a few names just from first team appearances which is quite rare, but great news.

I also recognise a lot of names due to their rugby playing familys.... De Glanville, Hardwick (ex Cov Prop, was capped), Manu Vunipola, Sleightholme, Redpath. Grayson called up recently too, and has been appearing for Saints.

Are the Kpoku twins both locks? I'd love to see a Kpoku 2nd row and both Currys in the back row. Have we ever played twins, or two lots of twins in an England team?
 
Sam Burgess on Twitter:

I seem to be getting a few tweets regarding the Rugby WC in 2015....Still. If people actually rewatched the games I participated in You will see I added to the team. What cost us an early exit was individual egos and selfish players not following our leader. Which ....

Essentially cost the coach and other great men their jobs. Tournaments are not won by the coaching staff or one player. It takes a commitment from the full group. I guarantee you this, I was committed but others had their own agendas. I have fond memories of my time in RU

And some great friends. One day I will tell my side of the story but for now I love watching @EnglandRugby and cannot wait to see them as they prepare for the 2019 WC in Japan.

I think he's right, honestly he was a good player for someone with no game time at Union he took to it quite well, just cock up by Bath and england stopped him on focusing on one position, I think the players not following Lancaster shows though how bad Lancaster was as a head coach.

That's one autobiography I can't wait to read.
Or have read to me on audible I that magical northern accent...
 
Top