England Rebuild

[Taylo2]

I'm sorry if something else has been started elsewhere, I must have missed it.

With England having to go through a rebuild now, we must aim for the 2015 World Cup, focus on creating a squad, not just a team, but a squad that can compete properly. Who would you like to see in and around the squad, and importantly, who would you keep away from it.

For me:

Props
+ Alex Corbisiero (Keep in, looks a good prospect for the next few years)
+ Dan Cole (Keep in, like Corbisiero should have a bright future)
+ David Wilson (Time to give him a chance)
- Matt Stevens (Has done well for Sarries this season, looked bright for saxons but alas hasnt done it for England)
- Andrew Sheridan (Might just be too injury prone and too old to make an impact in 2015)
Hookers
+ Dylan Hartley (I like him, possibly even enough to make him captain, though sometimes too petulant)
- Lee Mears (Too old to challenge for 2015)
- Steve Thompson (Too old)
Locks
+ Courtney Lawes (Keep him in, a hard tackling strong quick 2nd row....just needs to tackle legally but hard)
+ Tom Palmer (Quiet but has done everything well, might be too old for 2015, but should help develop his replacement)
- Simon Shaw (Will he still be rumbling on in 2015? no)
- Louis Deacon (Just no)
Back Row
+ Tom Croft (Still could be one of the worlds best, offers extra options in the line out and is so quick for a forward...on form is dangerous)
+ James Haskell (One of Englands better players again, but must play in his club position, so if he plays for club at 7, play him at 7, if he plays at 8, play him at 8....needs to be where he is used to playing, too much tooing and frowing is unsettling his development)
+ Tom Wood (Handy when given a chance, possible Moody replacement
- Lewis Moody (Yes he is captain but he offered very little this last year)
- Nick Easter (Good at handling the ball, but slow and often looks too lazy)
- Thomas Waldrom (Too old)
Scrum Halves
+ Ben Youngs (Bright, quick and the potential to be one of the worlds best, he can progress, just needs someone on his wavelength outside him)
+ Joe Simpson (Not seen much of the lad but what I have seen looked fairly bright)
- Richard Wigglesworth (Can't see him progressing any further)
Fly Halves
+ Toby Flood (A good kicker usually, been a little out of form recently)
- Johnny Wilkinson (Time to take a backroom role, help develop the youngsters)
Wings
+ Chris Ashton (Natural Finisher)
- Mark Cueto (Been a good sevant but its time to look for the future and bring in a real flyer)
Centers
+ Manu Tuilagi (Build the attack around him)
- Matt Banahan (Yes he is versitile, but I think everyone bar Johnson sees he isn't good enough)
- Shontayne Hape (Not good enough in attack to compliment his tackling which at times is great)
- Mike Tindall (Won't be around for 2015)
Full Backs
+ Delon Armitage (One of the best performers since coming back into the fold)
+ Ben Foden (A bright spark in the future of the team)

Will add to it later

So who is in and out for you guys?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't forget Haskell will be unavailable for the next year or so, with moving to Japan and then the Super XV

 

[gingergenius]

agree.

Front rows, in Corbisiero, Hartley and Cole we have a potentially destructive trio if they continue to improve. Backup needs to be worked on, let's keep with Wilson and Stevens, and start having a look at Marler when he's learnt to scrummage properly. Hooker backup is needed for Hartley.

Second rows, it's probably wise to keep Palmer around and certainly Lawes. Now is the time for the likes of Attwood, Gaskell etc. to step up and be given opportunities.

The most important thing for England to discover over the next few years is a balanced back row, which means a genuine 7 and a genuine 8. We've got enough blindsides who are good players, but we really need to stop this habit of squeezing people into the 7 jersey who don't belong there (Moody that includes you). Of genuine scrappers, it's time to see Wood, Seymour, Saull or anyone else in the Premiership who's on form (and not Armitage because he's not a natural 7 either, maybe an outside chance at 6 for me).

8 needs to be sorted as well. With no Haskell, I can see it will be very tempting to revert back to Nick Easter, which is probably what will happen. It shouldn't - time for Fearns/ Narraway/ Crane/ whoever to get involved and see what they've got to offer.

At 10, Toby Flood is a good player - he's no Carter and never will be, but he's good enough to be playing test rugby. We do need to find a backup, and at the moment the obvious option is Owen Farrell, although I'm sure more will emerge. Let's get him involved in the 6N if he keeps up his form.

Inside centre has been a position we've abused and neglected over the past few (8?) years. I've been screaming this for at least 18 months, but Allen and Barritt are proper 12s playing good rugby at the top club level. They MUST be competing for a starting berth in the 6N. Other options, such as Twelvetrees, Waldouck, Turner-Hall or even Farrell are available.

13 we have nailed with Tuilagi, but more options are needed. Again, there's a few guys I mentioned above who can cover, plus more options, even Matt Tait if he ever fits in at Leicester. Armitage is not a silly idea either.

Wings, to go with Ashton there are a number of good options. Armitage is one, there's Sharples, Ojo, Short and a few others knocking on the door. Strettle's worth a shout if he ever learns to defend, and Wade will be interesting to watch develop.

Fullback we have two quality options with Foden and Armitage.

All in all, we could see some interesting new faces in the 6N. Or we could see a continuation of the same....

 

[m0rris]

Firstly, I think for England to rebuild pretty much the entire RFU management and most of the coaching staff have to go... tomorrow. But unfortunately it isn't going to happen. Then the next most important aim has to be from the 2012 Six Nations to build a side to win the 2015 world cup, if that means we come 4th in 2012/13 as young players are outplayed by France/Wales/Ireland so be it, as long as by 2014 we have a side the we know can perform and know each other well.

Now... onto the options: (from a bath perspective)
Proppage is a bit tricky at the moment, if you wanted a new tighthead for the England setup Kane Palmer-Newport is your man. He is only young at the moment but excellent in the loose and doing well in the scrum.

With the locks, Davey Attwood should be able to crack it should he manage to string together enough gametime but as has been pointed out there are people like Gaskell out there who offer just as much.

Back rows shouldn't be too difficult if they look around properly, there are plenty of young 7s around town if they bothered to watch prem games I'm sure they'd see what the need there! At Bath we've got Mercer, who is a genuine 7, and is an all round beast and fearns ready to get involved at 8 but, he's not getting enough time there.

Half-backs, Bath have got a few young'uns floating around with promise e.g. Tom Heathcote, there's also Tim Taylor/Freddie Burns at Glaws and Ford at Tiggers who should be tried. One thing I am worried about is Bowden at L.Irish, Johnson said when he becomes eligible he'll pick him. The last thing we need is another failed Kiwi. But Farrell, who I never rated until I saw him play at the rec, could be exactly what we need for 2015, good goal kicker, brilliant tactical kicks and isn't a liability in defence. So for 2015, Flood, Farrell & A.N.Other in form english fly-half.As for SH, I am worried youngs will put himself into a Harry Ellis injury situationand we'll lose him so we need to start looking out for 3 new SHs, unfortunately I don't think Simpson will be the real deal but he'll do for now.

Centres... Allen at 12! If not him 36 could cut it there's also people like Ben Williams at Bath who are playing well ATM and could be brilliant in 2 years time. Personally I think it is fine to go for Allen ATM but we need to make sure we have other options there. As for 13, M Tuilagi will excell there. And as for Matt Banahan, he needs to be dropped now but pending another Autumn internationals trial, should he perform try him out in a six nations. He works very hard on his game and might one day cut it internationally, IMHO he wasn't bad against France but he hasn't cut it yet so give someone else a go.

Wings/Fullback. Foden! Ashton, Sharples, Morgan. Sorted.

My tuppence worth.

m0rris

 

[JW.]

Agree with most of the stuff being said here.

Front Row: Corbs, Marler, Stevens, Cole, Hartley need to find a proper back up for Hartley. *edit* just saw Wilson is only 25, could be very handy.

Locks: Lawes, Attwood, Launchbury, Gaskell and I'd keep Palmer in for a while to come, he'd be 36 come WC time and Shaw and Thorn have shown that at you can still be very good at an older age.

Back Rows: Haskell, Wood, Croft, Fearns, Launchbury (Wasps played him at 6 and he did very well there, not sure what he is going to play in the premiership so put him in here 2.) And we really need a quality 7, Wood could cut it there but I'm not confident yet.

SH: Youngs(for me he is the future at SH, he has all the talent needed just needs to back himself and regain form), Care (He's only 24 , and the improvement he has made over the last season is immense) Simpson(Not sure if he is test match material just yet, he could become that though.), Young.

FH: Flood (Only just 26, has the talent just needs to find form.), Farrel, Ford(IMO to young for 2015 but needs to be brought into the England Squad in the next 2 years.), Burns.

Centre's: Tuilagi, Allen, Tait, Barrit(not a fan of his though), Farrel (he for me could be the answer at 12 next to Allen then.)

Wings/Fullback: Ashton, Foden, Wade(This guy is insane reminds me a little bit of J.Robinson that eletric pace and sidestep, and he seems to read the game well), Sharples, Morgan

I am worried youngs will put himself into a Harry Ellis injury situationand we'll lose him so we need to start looking out for 3 new SHs

I don't understand? Please explain .

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Bear in mind that Gaskell has gone to **** - good in open play and if the pack is going forwards but far too lightweight and not good in the tight/grunt work


Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7

 

[m0rris]

I don't understand? Please explain .

My understanding of it, although it might well be complete rubbish was that Ellis was forced to retire at 27ish because of a persistant knee injury... something that we have already seen happen to youngs recently. I might be wrong but Youngs does seem to put his body through alot for the sake of rugby, manifesting itself in an operation already, and I am just worried that will me he can't play that much in the future.

Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7 Seymour at 7

Mercer at 7 Mercer at 7.... (that said he's probably too young. )

 

[Seaton]

When does Martin Johnson's contract actually expire?

If he does leave after this world cup, whom do you think might be the pretenders to the post?

 

[JW.]

My understanding of it, although it might well be complete rubbish was that Ellis was forced to retire at 27ish because of a persistant knee injury... something that we have already seen happen to youngs recently. I might be wrong but Youngs does seem to put his body through alot for the sake of rugby, manifesting itself in an operation already, and I am just worried that will me he can't play that much in the future.



Mercer at 7 Mercer at 7.... (that said he's probably too young. )

Ellis was indeed sadly forced to retire because he had to take to much pain medication just to get through the day. Youngs has had (as far as I know?) one knee problem. Plenty of people have undergone knee surgery to then go on and play high level sports for the rest of there carreer? He is IMO our future star scrumhalf and could be as good as anyone.

 

[JW.]

When does Martin Johnson's contract actually expire?

If he does leave after this world cup, whom do you think might be the pretenders to the post?

In or after December.

I'd hope to get a foreign coach in to be honest, and I'd love a NZ born one. Because they most of the time are just there for the Rugby and they understand Rugby to the fullest. And they don't mind giving the young guns a chance.

 

[m0rris]

Ah good then... nothing to worry about, yet.

m0rris

 

[Teh Mite]

Ellis was no loss. Owt more then a gobby, arm flapping thug who never put in a single good performance for England. And barely any for Leicester come to mention it.

 

[Saintjay]

Some good stuff being said on 5 live. England regulary win Grandslams at under 21 level so all hope is not lost. They mentioned Rob Andrew did the review four years ago and this is what we got, does he need help?

I think the back row is critical and needs looking at. When you look at all the good WC teams this year. The England tactics were plain wrong. We have good backs, Youngs is a hugh talent.

We need quick ball and are forwards seemd far from capable of providing this. We need a 6 and 7 that can play like Pocock, McCaw, Warburton. There must be some out of there.

Anyone got any idea why are ball was so slow, and I would be interested on people views for the 6 or 7 shirt. Jono did not seem to know.

 

[Teh Mite]

In or after December.

I'd hope to get a foreign coach in to be honest, and I'd love a NZ born one. Because they most of the time are just there for the Rugby and they understand Rugby to the fullest. And they don't mind giving the young guns a chance.

Oh dear...

 

[JW.]

Ellis was no loss. Owt more then a gobby, arm flapping thug who never put in a single good performance for England. And barely any for Leicester come to mention it.

It's sad when someone is forced to retire. Pointless.

And indeed we were runners up in the junior WC last year, and really scared NZ who have dominated that scene for years and years. That needs to start flowing over into our senior teams.

 

[Teh Mite]

There are enough players whit stud marks on their faces and knackered knees of their own because of him to make Ellis the exception to that rule.

 

[JW.]

There are enough players whit stud marks on their faces and knackered knees of their own because of him to make Ellis the exception to that rule.

Who's making any exeptions? You called him no loss, that IMO is disrespecting. Comment on how England are going to rebuild, you seen to have plenty of negative thoughts on England of last how would you rebuild this? Not just hate on a player that has been forced to retire and say it wasen't a loss.

 

[oldscumbagonian]

As M0rris pointed out earlier in this thread, the infighting at the top of the RFU is the priority. I cannot help but feel that the coaching staff were impacted by this and that it, in some way, contributed to the dismal showing in the WC. Of course, Martin Johnson would, understandably, never say that but in any organisation where there is distrust and disharmony at the top the bad vibes will trickle down.

If, at the youth level, England are scoring Grand Slams (and coming second in the Under 21 championship) where are things going wrong? Why should such good sides suddenly become not-so-good sides? This suggests a problem or two in the transition from junior to senior rugby. Given Wales's performance so far in the WC the reverse seems to be true there. Why? I know it's an old chestnut but is the fear of relegation from the Premiership stifling development of these younger players? For many of the coaches in the Premiership survival is the measure of success and players may well be taught "safety first" rather than the Super XV approach.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We need a 6 and 7 that can play like Pocock, McCaw, Warburton. There must be some out of there.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...8_diamond-ive-got-a-gem-in-blond-bomber-boris

 

[jordiev]

what about eastmond when he gets into union?