England Post-WC discussion

[RedruthRFC]

Yes, but the point that I'm am making is that staging a series of BaaBaas style matches is nowhere near as beneficial to the players involved as playing week in week out with the same team, composed of players of a similar standard. I'm yet to be convinced that this is possible in the way that you're describing. As things stand, this can be achieved via long term DR arrangements (not short term arrangements, particularly those brought about to benefit the receiving club, not the player in question). In the longer term, restructuring would be the way forward.

I don't think anyone is questioning the value of overseas quality to the players around them, Fritz van Heerden's influence on Ben Kay comes to mind in particular. I love the idea of a minimum wage for overseas players, it's one of the smartest ideas I've heard for a while. However, as I understand it, sport is no different to any other kind of employment and by implementing this, a citizen of any other European country could argue that the AP are seeking to restrict their freedom to trade within the EU. That said, the same goes for current regulations. It would take either one very motivated individual or a coordinated effort to raise a challenge to this, neither of which seems likely, although the suggested change could prompt agents to band together to raise a challenge.

 

[Peat]

On a slight tangent, I think I've asked the question before, but it's relevant here - the English Academy system is capable of producing U20 sides capable of competing with and beating the best sides in the world. What happens next that means relatively few of these players become internationals and more importantly world class players?

First off, we should be cautious about what beating the best in the world means at that point. The age grade limitation means teams are picking from far smaller pools and the smaller the pool, the more likely you start getting guys who are only there to make up the numbers. England's population advantage becomes very marked at this point. So too does the fact we have 12 teams and therefore a higher proportion of guys getting decent pro experience before hitting that field. Throw in the fact they'll have been conditioning for the pro game for an early age and there is a strong possibility that England's age grade wins have been to an extent more an expression of superior organisation and faster development rather than superior potential and stronger overall development. I'd also point out in this context that for most of the JWC, England teams have arrived on the back of five games together while the SH teams might have had a few friendlies at most - they've only just put in their own competition. So maybe those players aren't quite as good as the results indicate.

The second point of course is that U20 level is not the finished product and that to be the finished product they need the right development from their clubs and they are not getting it.

The third point I'd make is that the sides who've gone toe to toe against the world's best at that age are fairly recent; 2011 is the first team that sticks in my memory as being really really good. It's not a surprise that a bunch of 24 year olds haven't produced too many internationals and world class players really; even NZ's team only has the one World Class player from that vintage in Retallick. Not sure Launchbury is that far behind him - just a matter of consistency now for him.

 

[Raggs]

I can see how a maximum wage for foreign players would be a big issue, but I don't think it would be as easy to fight a minimum wage. Of course, the EQP numbers now merely get a reward if met, rather than explicitly saying that they cannot play, so there may be some traction there.

12 teams is simply too many to expect Englishmen to fill 70% of it, and for it still to be played at a very very high standard, if we treated rugby as the Kiwis do, then yes, absolutely no problem, but we don't. Solutions are therefore either reduce the number of team concentrate quality (but then where do we find decent competition apart from ourselves), or use foreign players to drive up standards.

 

[valley commando]

I can see how a maximum wage for foreign players would be a big issue, but I don't think it would be as easy to fight a minimum wage. Of course, the EQP numbers now merely get a reward if met, rather than explicitly saying that they cannot play, so there may be some traction there.

12 teams is simply too many to expect Englishmen to fill 70% of it, and for it still to be played at a very very high standard, if we treated rugby as the Kiwis do, then yes, absolutely no problem, but we don't. Solutions are therefore either reduce the number of team concentrate quality (but then where do we find decent competition apart from ourselves), or use foreign players to drive up standards.

Based on your comments re 70% of English qualified players per team, presumably you mean in a match day squad, you are then suggesting there would need to be less teams for this formulae to work, therefore do you not think a European super league would solve these issues ?
In Wales the regions can only sign 6 non Welsh qualified players whilst the rules are even more stringent in the Welsh premiership where clubs are restricted to 2 non Wales qualified players, these rules have had a massive impact in the quality of the international side with youngsters at both regional and club level getting chances they would not have had under previous rulings, young players capped such as Tyler Morgan, Cory Allen, Hallam Amos, Samson Lee, Rory Thornton, Dan Baker, Eli Walker etc etc, many of which would not have had a look in had sides been allowed to employ any number of non qualified players.
I would advocate 6 teams at the top level in England would improve the England team, with similar rules on non qualified players as in Wales, together with the same rules ie 2 per squad in the next tier down as in Wales.

 

[Crapspray]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...d-team-mates-after-Rugby-World-Cup-leaks.html

Mike Brown...I really like him. His fire and aggression, but theres just no purpose in this whatsoever.....should have kept his gob shut!

I know it's a bit late and tangential to pick up on this, but the more I see senior players say things like that the more I feel like the camp really was a ship of fools. If players have to resort to leaks and anonymity to criticise training then it won't be the wuvvly-cuddly culture we are all sold. Doesn't exactly smack of trust if players fear for their future if they contradict the party-line. Add in the "I will end you career!" rumours and it's not too far a stretch.

It really does seem quietly and blindly following whatever the coaches wanted was the best way to advance in the side. I wouldn't be surprised if independent thought was slowly marginalised and excluded. Shocking, then, that no clear leaders ever emerged in four years... or how creativity evaporated from even the most exciting players...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I know it's a bit late and tangential to pick up on this, but the more I see senior players say things like that the more I feel like the camp really was a ship of fools. If players have to resort to leaks and anonymity to criticise training then it won't be the wuvvly-cuddly culture we are all sold. Doesn't exactly smack of trust if players fear for their future if they contradict the party-line. Add in the "I will end you career!" rumours and it's not too far a stretch.

It really does seem quietly and blindly following whatever the coaches wanted was the best way to advance in the side. I wouldn't be surprised if independent thought was slowly marginalised and excluded. Shocking, then, that no clear leaders ever emerged in four years... or how creativity evaporated from even the most exciting players...

I can certainly see cipriani being left out because he was vocal on attack. Players need to feel able to be honest if the training is rubbish which it must have been looking how we played in the World Cup.

 

[Raggs]

Based on your comments re 70% of English qualified players per team, presumably you mean in a match day squad, you are then suggesting there would need to be less teams for this formulae to work, therefore do you not think a European super league would solve these issues ?
In Wales the regions can only sign 6 non Welsh qualified players whilst the rules are even more stringent in the Welsh premiership where clubs are restricted to 2 non Wales qualified players, these rules have had a massive impact in the quality of the international side with youngsters at both regional and club level getting chances they would not have had under previous rulings, young players capped such as Tyler Morgan, Cory Allen, Hallam Amos, Samson Lee, Rory Thornton, Dan Baker, Eli Walker etc etc, many of which would not have had a look in had sides been allowed to employ any number of non qualified players.
I would advocate 6 teams at the top level in England would improve the England team, with similar rules on non qualified players as in Wales, together with the same rules ie 2 per squad in the next tier down as in Wales.

The rest of my comments would show that I said either less English sides, or more foreigners. I actually believe more foreigners would be better.

The Welsh sides were pretty poor in the Euro Cup games if I recall correctly, the 2 Scottish teams did OK, and a couple of decent Irish teams. Unless the Welsh are willing to drop to 2 teams, the Irish the same, Scots can keep 2 (but probably in the basement of the league) and then drop the French to 8 teams?

I can see far more value in creating a 13 team league between England and France, with regards to improving player quality.

But, none of that will happen, since both the French and English clubs are businesses, so once we do away with that idea, we're left with upping quality via other routes.

If 50% of the squad could be made up of foreigners then we'd be looking at roughly 6 deep into English talent, which would be far closer to the 4-5 teams super rugby sides put forward. Add minimum wages for foreigners to do away with journeymen picks, and force high quality acquisitions, and the quality should improve.

The risk is obviously then you could end up with almost no teams using an Englishmen in key positions, but I'd hope across 12 teams, even with 50%, we'd manage it.

 

[valley commando]

The rest of my comments would show that I said either less English sides, or more foreigners. I actually believe more foreigners would be better.

The Welsh sides were pretty poor in the Euro Cup games if I recall correctly, the 2 Scottish teams did OK, and a couple of decent Irish teams. Unless the Welsh are willing to drop to 2 teams, the Irish the same, Scots can keep 2 (but probably in the basement of the league) and then drop the French to 8 teams?

I can see far more value in creating a 13 team league between England and France, with regards to improving player quality.

But, none of that will happen, since both the French and English clubs are businesses, so once we do away with that idea, we're left with upping quality via other routes.

If 50% of the squad could be made up of foreigners then we'd be looking at roughly 6 deep into English talent, which would be far closer to the 4-5 teams super rugby sides put forward. Add minimum wages for foreigners to do away with journeymen picks, and force high quality acquisitions, and the quality should improve.

The risk is obviously then you could end up with almost no teams using an Englishmen in key positions, but I'd hope across 12 teams, even with 50%, we'd manage it.

I'm all for dropping to 2 regions in Wales it would mean 2 strong teams an East Wales and West Wales region and the thousands of disenfranchised fans would return to 1st class rugby, but I would want the eligible player rules for the 2 new regions to limit non Welsh qualified players reduced to 2 the same as the Welsh premiership is at the moment, I don't care what happens to the potential regions in England, France, Ireland or Scotland, I am adamant that the stringent rules Wales apply has helped expose more youngsters to a higher level and in turn Wales have become stronger over the last few years as a direct result.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Can Sam James play 12?

 

[Mattybuck]

Can Sam James play 12?

I wondered that, looks physical enough and appeared to have a decent boot on him.

 

[Patchey]

Brednan O'Connor looked pretty incredible last night... Tigs must have been moist.

 

[MrTea_32]

Brednan O'Connor looked pretty incredible last night... Tigs must have been moist.

He looked pretty good and I didn't realise he was English qualified, might be abit of competition if we go for a specialist 7 with Fraser, Kvesic and possibly O'Connor

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Brednan O'Connor looked pretty incredible last night... Tigs must have been moist.

Dripping the fact he is a lineout jumper and covers across all back row certainly adds to his chances of making the squad.

Him, Mike Williams and Dom Barrow raised there chances.

 

[McTallshort]

Y

 

[Maverick1987]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...d-coach-but-the-future-still-looks-bleak.html

Holy crap this is the largest pile of **** I've ever read .......

 

[Raggs]

It's Steve James, I usually ignore most of his articles. Half of them (including this one it seems) are extolling the virtues of Farrell over the inadequacies of Ford.

 

[Maverick1987]

It's Steve James, I usually ignore most of his articles. Half of them (including this one it seems) are extolling the virtues of Farrell over the inadequacies of Ford.

Lol fair enough . I don't usually buy the telegraph . This one just popped up on my Facebook

 

[TheSaffycen]

Just watched Wasps v Leinster. Hughes will play for England, and he will be immense.
Side note Mullan, Cooper-Wooley, Daly and Wade all looked good. Daly is a weak defender but he would still be a dangerous 23 shirt. I believe now that Marler is going to have an issue getting into the squad if a coach like White comes in. Our props will probably be
Mullan, Mako, Cole, Brookes

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Just watched Wasps v Leinster. Hughes will play for England, and he will be immense.
Side note Mullan, Cooper-Wooley, Daly and Wade all looked good. Daly is a weak defender but he would still be a dangerous 23 shirt. I believe now that Marler is going to have an issue getting into the squad if a coach like White comes in. Our props will probably be
Mullan, Mako, Cole, Brookes

Hughes wasn't even that good today!
Agree with all the names you say; one slight worry was Daly falling off a few tackles at 13.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Hughes wasn't even that good today!
Agree with all the names you say; one slight worry was Daly falling off a few tackles at 13.

12 Carries, 53m, 6 Defenders Beaten, 3 Offloads, 7 Tackles 0 Missed
And he just made a B&I Lion his *****.