England Post-WC discussion

[Raggs]

I don't think Jacobs is that strong a defender, makes issues for Daly who's normally solid. Wade is looking far more solid in defence with Piutau at 15 rather than Miller.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I don't think Jacobs is that strong a defender, makes issues for Daly who's normally solid. Wade is looking far more solid in defence with Piutau at 15 rather than Miller.

Perhaps you're right; from where I stood it looked as though Daly simply went to high and got put on his arse! He was fantastic otherwise though.

 

[Raggs]

That's quite possible, it's more in general I'm talking. I think Daly thinks he's bigger than he really is, but all the time he's improving, so I'm happy to let him off .

 

[Crapspray]

Since we're mentioning Wasps, and were mentioning how the RFU should be able to influence club decisions, I wish the RFU would prioritise creating an incentive for playing early-20s English players over journeymen.

Something along the lines of a Player Development Credit - a bribe (let's be honest) paid towards the wages of a player provided they start a minimum number of games per season. All excluded from salary cap calculations.

Say £100,000 p/a for a player 25 years-old or younger with a guaranteed 15 starts per season in Premiership/European rugby. With a set number of around 3 or 4 credits per club. Maybe make it so it can only be redeemed once per position. Add in access agreements for the England/Saxons teams to boot.

It would not only help players like Lozowski get played ahead of the likes of Jackson, but if limited to a certain number per club it would help young talent spread out. It might avoid weird stacking situations where Harrison twiddled his thumbs at Tigers and Robson now at Wasps. Or Brookes and Hill at Saints.

Also pushes-up the cost of talent-hoovering as well, and boosts lower teams since it's a flat payment of £300,000 per club.

As a final thought, if there's a clear deficiency in a certain position at a national level (i.e. openside, fullback, and inside-centre) double the payment for players in that position.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What you mean Harrison twiddled his thumps with Leicester.

 

[Raggs]

Theory of mine here, could easily be wrong, but due to the very very early rumours of Loz being chased by Sarries and Quins, I wonder if it's more to do with not wanting to leave London, rather than anything else. The latest suggestion that he's going to Sarries certainly doesn't suggest that major game time was a concern of his, since he'll be firmly behind Farrell.

If Dai is aware of this fact, then I can understand him not being so willing to try and give him lots of game time, when he could be getting Jackson more minutes settling in.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What you mean Harrison twiddled his thumps with Leicester.

He's good enough to start at most clubs in the premiership, but is(/was? Where's Mele now?) firmly third choice at Tigers.

The latest suggestion that he's going to Sarries certainly doesn't suggest that major game time was a concern of his, since he'll be firmly behind Farrell.

Saracens have a strong rotational system in place, though. Charlie H will likely retire at the end of the season, so Loz would get 2 starts a month, in all likelihood, and be on the bench for the others. At Wasps he'd be lucky to get two bench spots a month when everyone's fit.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

He's good enough to start at most clubs in the premiership, but is(/was? Where's Mele now?) firmly third choice at Tigers.

He became Tigers second choice last season over took Mele.

He had suffered from injuries before that.

Harrison staying ATM because Tigers is his club he was born across from the stadium (i think) live in Leicester all his life was an academy product. He is clearly loyal to Leicester and that is why he signed a new contract.

 

[McTallshort]

He became Tigers second choice last season over took Mele.

He had suffered from injuries before that.

Harrison staying ATM because Tigers is his club he was born across from the stadium (i think) live in Leicester all his life was an academy product. He is clearly loyal to Leicester and that is why he signed a new contract.

Yes well there is a pretty big hospital opposite Welford rd...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He became Tigers second choice last season over took Mele.

He had suffered from injuries before that.

Harrison staying ATM because Tigers is his club he was born across from the stadium (i think) live in Leicester all his life was an academy product. He is clearly loyal to Leicester and that is why he signed a new contract.

Isn't that the point Crapspray was making, though?
Rewarding academy players loyalty?

Tigers would get money for putting trust into academy products like Harrison rather than buying in average journeymen like Mele. In theory he could've left to go and start/get more game time elsewhere, but he's chosen to stay at his home club despite (in the past) not getting much game time.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Isn't that the point Crapspray was making, though?
Rewarding academy players loyalty?

Tigers would get money for putting trust into academy products like Harrison rather than buying in average journeymen like Mele. In theory he could've left to go and start/get more game time elsewhere, but he's chosen to stay at his home club despite (in the past) not getting much game time.

Nope he was saying that Tigers wouldn't get anything because he isn't a regular starter (yet) and is behind our other academy scrum half Youngs. And you would be limited to 1 per position.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah.

Yeah.


Mis-read that one :lol:

 

[Crapspray]

With the example of Harrison, it was more to avoid stacking academy players on top of each other, hence only allowing the bribe once per position. If he could get whatever he's paid now plus an extra £100,000 from the RFU to start at another premiership club it might overcome his loyalty. I did also bring up Simpson/Robson, which to me is far more damaging to England's development.

And on the club side of things, if somewhere like Gloucester could save/make money hiring Harrison (or keeping Robson) ahead of a naff Celt* like Laidlaw, it benefits just about all parties. See also: Jackson at Wasps, Hook at Gloucester, and Denton (soon) at Bath.

As was mentioned earlier, our ability to convert U20s to internationals is horrible. If someone can think of a way the RFU can stop 20-25 year-olds sitting behind cash-cows then we might actually improve that. Look at the development of Farrell and Ford when they both got regular starts at Sarries and Bath.



*Bit harsh, but I think they're limited players who are picked based on experience/reputation. If there's an English youngster with the potential to be better than them, then the RFU needs to intervene and get them starting. It's effectively trading our development for international rivals' player base.

EDIT: I accept there's some loyalty that won't be overcome, and always like one-club players, but there needs to be an incentive to spread out talent. Otherwise we'll see the top six hoard their academy products and spend five years filtering them into domestic rugby. Needs to be done far quicker.

 

[j'nuh]

It surprises me how many people rate Robson. In my experience, he's a highlights reel player, although quite promising in certain aspects too. Not someone you want to depend on week-in, week-out.

England has a bad habit of not producing decent 9s. We simply don't have the quality to fill all the top teams with one.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It surprises me how many people rate Robson. In my experience, he's a highlights reel player, although quite promising in certain aspects too. Not someone you want to depend on week-in, week-out.

England has a bad habit of not producing decent 9s. We simply don't have the quality to fill all the top teams with one.

I think it's more the fact people are surprised he left Glous for more game time to a team with a form 9 in Simpson.

I think he would improve a lot with more game time.

 

[j'nuh]

I thought that Laidlaw had the things Robson didn't - Laidlaw's marshalling, composure and quality decision-making - that made Laidlaw an ideal tutor. Instead Robson went somewhere to be behind a like-for-like player. Robson would have gotten more game time at Gloucester (Laidlaw's international commitments have meant Heinz and Braley have had a decent run out so far). Also, given Laidlaw's age, Robson didn't exactly have to wait long to transition to be number one.

I get the impression Robson believed his own hype after beating out Cowan the previous season (not particularly impressive, Cowan wasn't the 50+ cap All Black that we hoped we had signed) and thought he could go somewhere and make himself first-choice.

 

[Peat]

My impression was Robson looked at his chances of getting past Glaws' first choice kicker and decided that was a no-goer. Based on absolutely nothing btw - but there's no doubting Laidlaw's goalkicking makes him a hell of a lot more difficult to shift from the team than he otherwise would be.

England's awash with potentially very good scrum-halves... but not many who actually are, alas.

 

[Crapspray]

It surprises me how many people rate Robson. In my experience, he's a highlights reel player, although quite promising in certain aspects too. Not someone you want to depend on week-in, week-out.

That's why I brought up Farrell and Ford. Both were rotation options and had really glaring flaws. They finally got a chance of starting consistently and two years later they've improved considerably in those areas. Not completely gone, but significantly improved; especially in Farrell's case.

England's previous coaches always used to avoid players because of perceived inconsistencies and flaws. How better to address that than by gaining experience? How is Robson meant to iron out inconsistencies with an average of 20 minutes a week? And is it ludicrous to think he's pushing for highlight-reel plays because that's what he thinks will get him more minutes/starts?

Yes it might not be best for short and medium-term results, but that's why we're bribing them.

 

[stus768]

What's happened to Spencer at Sarries? I never see him in a match day squad but I think I read he signed a new deal last year. Surely his progression is being massively hampered?

 

[yaboyjj]

What's happened to Spencer at Sarries? I never see him in a match day squad but I think I read he signed a new deal last year. Surely his progression is being massively hampered?

He's in the rotation at Sarries- rarely gets a start though, made the bench a couple of times this season I think. I suspect his breakthrough will be next season, with De Kock possibly retiring/Wigglesworth a bit past it.