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England Post-WC discussion
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chippieolamus
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I feel like we may as well give Wade a chance in the next 6N. It may well be the only chance the new coach (hopefully) gets with very little pressure, as it should be accepted that blooding players may mean a few losses. I've always been a critic of his in terms of his defence and aerial skills, but much as we can hypothesise about what 'might' happen if he plays for England vs 'top' international teams (not counting vs 2nd string Argies), we won't know for sure. Give him a shot.
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Our back 3 isn't the area we need to sort really is it
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Going into 2019 it is but not in the sense we lack talent. Brown will be too old and needs to be replaced and the prime replacement is our winger. Therefore we need to decide who we want on the right wing. As a completely unbaised Bath fan, I must say Roko on form ticks every box and more. Jack Nowell though has barely put a foot wrong for England recently and definitely in contention.
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Sure Taits younger than Brown...
Update
LHP:
In situ: Marler (25), Vunipola (24)
Contending: Mullan (28), Corbisiero (26)
Outside shot: Waller (25), Moon (26), Catt (27)
Long term: Harrison (22), Genge (20), Auterac (22)
Feels less healthy now with Marler's travails and Corbs' failure to make the squad. Would back Marler to recover and Marler/Vunipola is decent on its day but not amazing.
Matt Mullan may scent blood as a result - strong season needed as it's now or never. Will watch Corbs with baited breath.
Would like someone to step up and provide a real challenge. Auterac the betting man's choice.
Hooker
In situ: Youngs (28), Webber (29), George (24)
Contending: Hartley (29)
Outside shot: Gray (27), Yeandle (25)
Long term: Taylor (23), Walker (19), Haywood (23), Buchanan (24), Cowan-Dickie (22)
Still feels like big changes could happen. Suspect Youngs, George and Hartley would be EPS hookers as stands. Youngs/George potentially very strong.
Interesting questions if injury mounted. Cowan-Dickie's throwing has to improve first. Webber's status with Bath unknown. Gray would let no one down, doubt coaches would be that interested - would benefit under hard line on discipline and throwing.
Don't feel like breakouts from the long termers are incipient. Would like to be wrong as depth not outstanding.
THP
In situ: Cole (28), D Wilson (30), Brookes (24)
Contending: Thomas (23)
Outside shot: Cooper-Woolley (25), Denman (24), Collier (24)
Long term: Hill (20), Sinckler (22), S Wilson (21), Balmain (23)
Recent issues aside, stronk like machine. Cole/Wilson at peak would be as good as anyone. Brookes putting on big pressure.
We possibly have a stronger prospects pipeline at tighthead than the rest of the world put together (mild hyperbole).
Lock
In situ: Launchbury (24), Lawes (26), Parling (31), Kruis (25)
Contending: Attwood (28), Itoje (20), Slater (27), Kitchener (25)
Outside shot: Garvey (27), Gaskell (25), Paterson (30), Savage (26), Matthews (24), Symons (26)
Long term: Stooke (21), Williams (23), Barrow (22), Beaumont (23), Ewels (20)
Ridiculous. Hope we don't actually waste Itoje here.
Blindside
In situ: Robshaw (29), Haskell (30), Wood (28)
Contending: Croft (29), Clark (26), Itoje (20), Burgess (26), Ewers (24), Clifford (22)
Outside shot: Wray (24), Gibson (24), Jones (23), Wilson (26), Fisher (27)
Long term: ?
Lots of players, not much class. How any incoming coach treats the incumbents will be interesting. Peak performance Robshaw or Wood could be a real asset.
I want Itoje and Croft. Ewers has earned a shot if we want to go that route. Burgess should contend at some point.
Genuinely unsure about who is young and really bucking for this.
Openside
In situ: -
Contending: Kvesic (23), Fraser (25), Armitage (30)
Outside shot: Welch (25), Wallace (25), Seymour (31), Lund (32)
Long term: Ludlam (19), Clifford (22)
Seperated. Only opensides foreigners would agree with. It's a desperate position here.
If circumstances made Armitage available he'd walk into the squad and I suspect the team.
Lund and Seymour might be short term options for a coach so inclined.
Really hope Clifford makes the conversation, that Fraser stays fit, that Kvesic is as good as people think. Shame Blake Gibson doesn't have an English granny.
8
In situ: Morgan (26), Vunipola (22), Easter (36)
Contending: Beaumont (23), Clifford (22)
Outside shot: Waldrom (30-something)
Long term: Hughes (24), Evans (23), Chisholm (20)
Handing back my confidence tbh. Morgan and Vunipola are both capable of great things but whether they'll achieve them I don't know. Morgan breaks a little easy, Vunipola perhaps lacks explosiveness.
A handful of promising youngsters and of course option poach. He'll happen, I'll hate it, but probably learn to love it. Yeuch.
Scum-Half
In situ: Youngs (25), Wigglesworth (32), Care (28)
Contending: Dickson (30), Simpson (27), Chudley (27)
Long term: Robson (23), Harrison (25), Spencer (23), Townsend (20), Cook (24), Braley (21)
Issues. Lot of old men with the flaws, lot of young men struggling to make impact.
Simpson/Robson at Wasps feels like winner take all for a spot. Can't say I'm actively welcoming either despite huge potential.
Suspect Youngs' career will end with him looking like an England great, despite evidence to contrary. Would love him to fix his flaws.
Fly-Half
In situ: Ford (22), Farrell (23), Slade (22)
Contending: Cipriani (27)
Long shot: Burns (25), Myler (ancient, lets take him to the glue factory), Goode (27)
Long term: Lozoskwi (22), Swiel (22), Burns (21), Protheroe (18)
5 capped fly-halves who'll be in contention is nice. All have the talent. None are certainly the full deal. If Farrell wins I will burn faces.
Decent wave of talent coming behind them but will struggle due to age of incumbents. Might wish to consider versatility.
Goode interesting wild card if things go a bit odd.
In mild troll mode but Hanrahan at Saints is a big talent, not tied to Ireland, and will be 'English' before next World Cup. Kekeke
Inside Centre
In situ: Barritt (29), Slade (22), Farrell (23)
Contending: Tuilagi (24), Eastmond (26), Burrell (27), Twelvetrees (26)
Outside shot: Lozoskwi (22), Marshall (mid-twenties), Atkinson (25)
Long term: Hill (22), Devoto (21), Lowe (25), Sloan (21), Marchant (19), Stephenson (21), Tompkins (20), Mills (23)
Outside Centre
In situ: Joseph (24), Barritt (29), Slade (22)
Contending: Burrell (27), Tuilagi (24), Daly (23),
Outside shot: Lowe (25), Trinder (mid-twenties), Tait (29), Nowell (22), Addison (early mid-twenties)
Long term: Marchant (19), Tompkins (20), Purdy (21)
Plenty of choices but few you'd want to make. Call me a neanderthal, but wish there were more units in these two.
A lot of promising young centres, desperately hope some of them kick on soon. Hill and Devoto big hopes.
Would love to say we can ignore Marshall but reality says no.
Wing
In situ: Nowell (22), May (25), Watson (21)
Contending: Yarde (23), Ashton (28), Rokoduguni (27)
Outside shot: Wade (24), Banahan (28), Marshall, Brady (24), Sharples (25), Thompstone (28), Benjamin (27), Elliott (24)
Long term: Lewington (23), Earle (20), Collins (21), Packman (20)
A position of flux - three form men in the shirt, could change quickly. All something of a muchness out of the serious contenders save Rokoduguni. Power at a premium.
Very jealous of the way Zebo steps in to first receiver for Ireland. I want some of that. Not sure any of these offer it. Nowell at stretch?
Lewington looks a lot closer now I look at it again.
Full back
In situ: Brown (29), Goode (27), Watson (21)
Contending: Foden (30), Pennell (28)
Outside chance: Tait (29), Miller (26), Marshall, various Arscotts
Long term: Haley (21), Bell (22), Hammersley (22), Protheroe (18)
Change is coming, it's all up to Watson to prove himself before the field catches up.
I would love to see a genuine playmaking full-back option in future.
Feel like I'm missing someone.
Having completed this, I have to say it's striking how poor our resources are when it comes to combining pace and power. Back row and centre look our two weakest positions as a result. Scrum-half next weakest I think.
There is some major prospect stacking in some positions - 4 locks at Tigers, 3 tightheads at Saints, there's a few guys who I omitted due to rivals at their own club too.
I am confident that if prioritised no tight five in rugby will be getting on top of us anytime soon.
Based on this, my ideal squad for next 6N assuming form and fitness allowing:
Youngs, George, Taylor (hatehartley)
Cole, Wilson, Marler, Vunipola
Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Kitchener
Itoje, Croft, Kvesic, Clifford, Morgan, Vunipola
Youngs, Care, Simpson
Ford, Cipriani, Slade
Tuilagi, Hill, Joseph, Tait
May, Watson, Nowell, Rokoduguni
Brown
LHP:
In situ: Marler (25), Vunipola (24)
Contending: Mullan (28), Corbisiero (26)
Outside shot: Waller (25), Moon (26), Catt (27)
Long term: Harrison (22), Genge (20), Auterac (22)
Feels less healthy now with Marler's travails and Corbs' failure to make the squad. Would back Marler to recover and Marler/Vunipola is decent on its day but not amazing.
Matt Mullan may scent blood as a result - strong season needed as it's now or never. Will watch Corbs with baited breath.
Would like someone to step up and provide a real challenge. Auterac the betting man's choice.
Hooker
In situ: Youngs (28), Webber (29), George (24)
Contending: Hartley (29)
Outside shot: Gray (27), Yeandle (25)
Long term: Taylor (23), Walker (19), Haywood (23), Buchanan (24), Cowan-Dickie (22)
Still feels like big changes could happen. Suspect Youngs, George and Hartley would be EPS hookers as stands. Youngs/George potentially very strong.
Interesting questions if injury mounted. Cowan-Dickie's throwing has to improve first. Webber's status with Bath unknown. Gray would let no one down, doubt coaches would be that interested - would benefit under hard line on discipline and throwing.
Don't feel like breakouts from the long termers are incipient. Would like to be wrong as depth not outstanding.
THP
In situ: Cole (28), D Wilson (30), Brookes (24)
Contending: Thomas (23)
Outside shot: Cooper-Woolley (25), Denman (24), Collier (24)
Long term: Hill (20), Sinckler (22), S Wilson (21), Balmain (23)
Recent issues aside, stronk like machine. Cole/Wilson at peak would be as good as anyone. Brookes putting on big pressure.
We possibly have a stronger prospects pipeline at tighthead than the rest of the world put together (mild hyperbole).
Lock
In situ: Launchbury (24), Lawes (26), Parling (31), Kruis (25)
Contending: Attwood (28), Itoje (20), Slater (27), Kitchener (25)
Outside shot: Garvey (27), Gaskell (25), Paterson (30), Savage (26), Matthews (24), Symons (26)
Long term: Stooke (21), Williams (23), Barrow (22), Beaumont (23), Ewels (20)
Ridiculous. Hope we don't actually waste Itoje here.
Blindside
In situ: Robshaw (29), Haskell (30), Wood (28)
Contending: Croft (29), Clark (26), Itoje (20), Burgess (26), Ewers (24), Clifford (22)
Outside shot: Wray (24), Gibson (24), Jones (23), Wilson (26), Fisher (27)
Long term: ?
Lots of players, not much class. How any incoming coach treats the incumbents will be interesting. Peak performance Robshaw or Wood could be a real asset.
I want Itoje and Croft. Ewers has earned a shot if we want to go that route. Burgess should contend at some point.
Genuinely unsure about who is young and really bucking for this.
Openside
In situ: -
Contending: Kvesic (23), Fraser (25), Armitage (30)
Outside shot: Welch (25), Wallace (25), Seymour (31), Lund (32)
Long term: Ludlam (19), Clifford (22)
Seperated. Only opensides foreigners would agree with. It's a desperate position here.
If circumstances made Armitage available he'd walk into the squad and I suspect the team.
Lund and Seymour might be short term options for a coach so inclined.
Really hope Clifford makes the conversation, that Fraser stays fit, that Kvesic is as good as people think. Shame Blake Gibson doesn't have an English granny.
8
In situ: Morgan (26), Vunipola (22), Easter (36)
Contending: Beaumont (23), Clifford (22)
Outside shot: Waldrom (30-something)
Long term: Hughes (24), Evans (23), Chisholm (20)
Handing back my confidence tbh. Morgan and Vunipola are both capable of great things but whether they'll achieve them I don't know. Morgan breaks a little easy, Vunipola perhaps lacks explosiveness.
A handful of promising youngsters and of course option poach. He'll happen, I'll hate it, but probably learn to love it. Yeuch.
Scum-Half
In situ: Youngs (25), Wigglesworth (32), Care (28)
Contending: Dickson (30), Simpson (27), Chudley (27)
Long term: Robson (23), Harrison (25), Spencer (23), Townsend (20), Cook (24), Braley (21)
Issues. Lot of old men with the flaws, lot of young men struggling to make impact.
Simpson/Robson at Wasps feels like winner take all for a spot. Can't say I'm actively welcoming either despite huge potential.
Suspect Youngs' career will end with him looking like an England great, despite evidence to contrary. Would love him to fix his flaws.
Fly-Half
In situ: Ford (22), Farrell (23), Slade (22)
Contending: Cipriani (27)
Long shot: Burns (25), Myler (ancient, lets take him to the glue factory), Goode (27)
Long term: Lozoskwi (22), Swiel (22), Burns (21), Protheroe (18)
5 capped fly-halves who'll be in contention is nice. All have the talent. None are certainly the full deal. If Farrell wins I will burn faces.
Decent wave of talent coming behind them but will struggle due to age of incumbents. Might wish to consider versatility.
Goode interesting wild card if things go a bit odd.
In mild troll mode but Hanrahan at Saints is a big talent, not tied to Ireland, and will be 'English' before next World Cup. Kekeke
Inside Centre
In situ: Barritt (29), Slade (22), Farrell (23)
Contending: Tuilagi (24), Eastmond (26), Burrell (27), Twelvetrees (26)
Outside shot: Lozoskwi (22), Marshall (mid-twenties), Atkinson (25)
Long term: Hill (22), Devoto (21), Lowe (25), Sloan (21), Marchant (19), Stephenson (21), Tompkins (20), Mills (23)
Outside Centre
In situ: Joseph (24), Barritt (29), Slade (22)
Contending: Burrell (27), Tuilagi (24), Daly (23),
Outside shot: Lowe (25), Trinder (mid-twenties), Tait (29), Nowell (22), Addison (early mid-twenties)
Long term: Marchant (19), Tompkins (20), Purdy (21)
Plenty of choices but few you'd want to make. Call me a neanderthal, but wish there were more units in these two.
A lot of promising young centres, desperately hope some of them kick on soon. Hill and Devoto big hopes.
Would love to say we can ignore Marshall but reality says no.
Wing
In situ: Nowell (22), May (25), Watson (21)
Contending: Yarde (23), Ashton (28), Rokoduguni (27)
Outside shot: Wade (24), Banahan (28), Marshall, Brady (24), Sharples (25), Thompstone (28), Benjamin (27), Elliott (24)
Long term: Lewington (23), Earle (20), Collins (21), Packman (20)
A position of flux - three form men in the shirt, could change quickly. All something of a muchness out of the serious contenders save Rokoduguni. Power at a premium.
Very jealous of the way Zebo steps in to first receiver for Ireland. I want some of that. Not sure any of these offer it. Nowell at stretch?
Lewington looks a lot closer now I look at it again.
Full back
In situ: Brown (29), Goode (27), Watson (21)
Contending: Foden (30), Pennell (28)
Outside chance: Tait (29), Miller (26), Marshall, various Arscotts
Long term: Haley (21), Bell (22), Hammersley (22), Protheroe (18)
Change is coming, it's all up to Watson to prove himself before the field catches up.
I would love to see a genuine playmaking full-back option in future.
Feel like I'm missing someone.
Having completed this, I have to say it's striking how poor our resources are when it comes to combining pace and power. Back row and centre look our two weakest positions as a result. Scrum-half next weakest I think.
There is some major prospect stacking in some positions - 4 locks at Tigers, 3 tightheads at Saints, there's a few guys who I omitted due to rivals at their own club too.
I am confident that if prioritised no tight five in rugby will be getting on top of us anytime soon.
Based on this, my ideal squad for next 6N assuming form and fitness allowing:
Youngs, George, Taylor (hatehartley)
Cole, Wilson, Marler, Vunipola
Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Kitchener
Itoje, Croft, Kvesic, Clifford, Morgan, Vunipola
Youngs, Care, Simpson
Ford, Cipriani, Slade
Tuilagi, Hill, Joseph, Tait
May, Watson, Nowell, Rokoduguni
Brown
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If whoever is in charge of England for the next four years doesn't see the importance of an openside i wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor jump up the pecking order. Was a 7 until u20s, and still played it occasionally up until season before last, but unlike Youngs, actually has put time into the core skills of his new position.
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_...architects-new-pumas-identity-rugby-world-cup
Interesting how so much of this could apply to England. Argentina didn't just say 'we want to play like NZ' they went out and got a Henry as a consultant and implemented training to deliver their desired game plan. Focussing on skills and the breakdown. England haven't done any of this.
Interesting how so much of this could apply to England. Argentina didn't just say 'we want to play like NZ' they went out and got a Henry as a consultant and implemented training to deliver their desired game plan. Focussing on skills and the breakdown. England haven't done any of this.
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I know a few on here are pro Attwood but if Salter can have his form back to what it was pre injury I would give him the chance.
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I don't know why you equate Attwood's skills with Slater's....
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Slater offer grunt which is what he was talking about
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So you'd leave out Launchbury? He is the future (along with Kruis/Slater ).
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Slater isn't particularly young.
I'd have Launchbury and Kruis competing for one position unless we're playing someone with a lightweight pack. The other I'd embed Attwood in. With the options we have in the front row we need to put the grunt in behind them to ensure our scrum can dominate.
You must have a pretty low opinion of our front row if you think Launchbury and Kruis would be an inadequate second row for the set piece unless playing a lightweight pack. Can't say I'd share it.
Also reckon Kruis has got a long way to go before I'd play him ahead of Launchbury. Him and every other lock tbh.
Also reckon Kruis has got a long way to go before I'd play him ahead of Launchbury. Him and every other lock tbh.
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Are we supposed to think highly of them?
They are, collectively, the kings of dog ****e.
Would you put money on them being that bad come the Six Nations, or would you expect them to be more like they are every six Nations?
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Right Haskell is crap and shouldn't be playing for England
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In other news Grass is green and toast is also bread.
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