England Post-WC discussion

[Crapspray]

Example (probably not many others) of him carrying it up that game.
http://i.giflike.com/mg2Hwn1.gif
Don't see how he could have made 0 metres but yep, thats what ESPN seems to be saying...

1 + 2 - 3 = 0

Remember he had Twelvetrees and then Farrell inside him at 12; he was probably given a hospital pass or two. Youngs probably crabbed back a few yards backwards from the scrum in that gif as well.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Andrew
Lancaster
Farrell

To keep there jobs IMO that is a big possibility.

 

[Peat]

To state the obvious, there's some right old buggers in the tournament and some of the names in that list will survive (I'll put money on it being Sexton's last huzzah now) but the general point is good. 2019 we should finally look properly done.

2023 is when the stars should really align though.

 

[Hulkster]

2023?!

We've just had four years of jam tomorrow and just as we got to the time the jam was supposed to be ready were told it was actually going to take four more years.

 

[Peat]

I don't know who told you what Hulkster, but simply in terms of when our best players will be in their primes, then aye, 2023. Anyone who thought we'd be at peak in 2015 is full of it, that's been obvious forever.

 

[Mumbles119]

Improving the back row and centre partnerships are the essential priority right now.

But looking further to the future, below is a squad selection I cannot stop thinking about and am trying to get right. The first name is who should be in our best 6N squad for 2016, and the second name is the player who could be seen as the future and success in that position. I wanted to show it this way, so I can see the players that should be supporting (mentoring?) each other to hand over to, and to see who is the spine of a future team from now on.

Obviously there are lots of other names that could be potential for the future too, but I have tried to get a balance of an individual squad.

Interestingly I tried to fit Manu in there, but at 13 I feel he would stifle distribution compared to Joseph, and at having Manu at 12 feels too much of a risk and completely unproven as a playmaker.

[TABLE="width: 500"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]1. Mako Vunipola[/TD]
[TD]> 1. Mako Vunipola[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. Jamie George[/TD]
[TD]> 2. Jamie George[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3. Kieran Brookes[/TD]
[TD]> 3. Paul Hill[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4. Joe Launchbury[/TD]
[TD]> 4. Joe Launchbury[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5. Dave Attwood[/TD]
[TD]> 5. Graham Kitchener[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6. Dave Ewers[/TD]
[TD]> 6. Maro Itoje[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7. Matt Kvesic[/TD]
[TD]> 7.Matt Kvesic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8. Billy Vunipola[/TD]
[TD]> 8. Billy Vunipola[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9. Joe Simpson[/TD]
[TD]> 9. Dan Robson[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10. George Ford[/TD]
[TD]> 10, Henry Slade[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11. Jack Nowell[/TD]
[TD]> 11. Semesa Rokoduguni[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12. Henry Slade[/TD]
[TD]> 12. Ollie Devoto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13. Jonathon Joseph[/TD]
[TD]> 13. Jonathon Joseph[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14. Anthony Watson[/TD]
[TD]> 14. Christian Wade[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15. Mike Brown[/TD]
[TD]> 15. Anthony Watson[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16. Tom Youngs[/TD]
[TD]> 16. Tom Youngs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17. Joe Marler[/TD]
[TD]> 17. Nick Auterac[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18. Dan Cole[/TD]
[TD]> 18. Kieran Brookes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19. Maro Itoje[/TD]
[TD]> 19. Josh Beaumont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20. Ben Morgan[/TD]
[TD]> 20. Jack Clifford[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]21. Danny Care[/TD]
[TD]> 21. Chris Cook[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]22. Owen Farrell[/TD]
[TD]> 22. George Ford[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]23. Danny Cipriani[/TD]
[TD]> 23. Jack Nowell[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Whilst I like Devoto and think he is has great potential he needs to be playing more regularly.

Will be interesting to see what happens to Eastmond and him, I know Devoto can cover 15 and 10 but he has been rubbish there IMO.

Personally if he replaces him I would love Eastmond to come to Tigers

 

[Geordie]

What about Tom Stephenson at Saints. He looks like he could be a cracking 12.
And Sam Hill at Exeter?

For me the backs are actually sorting themselves out...only 12 really needs to be addressed and decide which ten to actually stick with. ie Ford, Cips, Slade etc.
Not Farrell though.

Its the pack that's the problem.

I really feel we had a soft belly. Few genuine tough men in there. We need a few of those back in. And get that scrum sorted out straight away.
Then work on the lineout. And most importantly increase the number of genuine ball carriers in the pack. Having the No.8 and occasionally hooker as the sole carriers is not enough.

Many talking of the back row spot. How Kvesic wasn't in the squad ill never know....but he MUST be looked at now. He is a cracking openside. AND is a carrier...and is a leader!

Then 6. Itoje has been mentioned and im hopeful of him but I just see him as a lock. Maybe a more powerful version of Lawes.
Ewers to me should also have been at the WC...he is a game changer and absolute beast in the back row. He would be in my 6n squad.

But heres another name.....Sam Burgess.
I know hes been discussed to death...but he'll be at 6 for Bath this season. He's a monster, he's a huge defenceman and he's a huge carrier. And most definitely he's a leader. He will work with Louw and the coaches etc on his breakdown skills...as he will work on his lineout.
We know he's not a centre but he didn't actually do badly there...imagine how good he "could" be at 6. We shall see this season.

The other one ill mention is Dom Barrow whos just moved from my Falcons to Tigers. Hes had a raw deal with injuries and sadly we're a club who cant afford to carry passengers. Tigers can give him time however and if he can get fit permanently...(hes only 22)...he's 6'8 19+st (he is a monster) and very mobile for a powerhouse lock. He could be a huge player for England in a couple of years.

 

[Mattybuck]

What about Tom Stephenson at Saints. He looks like he could be a cracking 12.
And Sam Hill at Exeter?

For me the backs are actually sorting themselves out...only 12 really needs to be addressed and decide which ten to actually stick with. ie Ford, Cips, Slade etc.
Not Farrell though.

Its the pack that's the problem.

I really feel we had a soft belly. Few genuine tough men in there. We need a few of those back in. And get that scrum sorted out straight away.
Then work on the lineout. And most importantly increase the number of genuine ball carriers in the pack. Having the No.8 and occasionally hooker as the sole carriers is not enough.

Many talking of the back row spot. How Kvesic wasn't in the squad ill never know....but he MUST be looked at now. He is a cracking openside. AND is a carrier...and is a leader!

Then 6. Itoje has been mentioned and im hopeful of him but I just see him as a lock. Maybe a more powerful version of Lawes.
Ewers to me should also have been at the WC...he is a game changer and absolute beast in the back row. He would be in my 6n squad.

But heres another name.....Sam Burgess.
I know hes been discussed to death...but he'll be at 6 for Bath this season. He's a monster, he's a huge defenceman and he's a huge carrier. And most definitely he's a leader. He will work with Louw and the coaches etc on his breakdown skills...as he will work on his lineout.
We know he's not a centre but he didn't actually do badly there...imagine how good he "could" be at 6. We shall see this season.

The other one ill mention is Dom Barrow whos just moved from my Falcons to Tigers. Hes had a raw deal with injuries and sadly we're a club who cant afford to carry passengers. Tigers can give him time however and if he can get fit permanently...(hes only 22)...he's 6'8 19+st (he is a monster) and very mobile for a powerhouse lock. He could be a huge player for England in a couple of years.

You speak a great deal of sense...

I was trying remember that name of the Exe 12 Sam Hill has always looked dangerous.

Shame Sam was taken to RWC he could of spent a good preseason at Bath learning his trade.

There is no debate about his position at Bath... It's 6 or bust I think.

 

[Mumbles119]

There are so many names that could be the stars. I suppose this is why the question of having the right coach and gameplan is the crucial first step.

I agree about Stephenson, but feel that Devoto is probably on step ahead on already. But hopefully this new season will give all those we wnant to see a good chance.

What about Tom Marshall? The news reports are a little confusing? Is he definitely coming to Gloucester? How do people feel about a player who has been very open about his desire to play for NZ and has always worked towards, but now wants to use his parentage and play for England?

 

[Geordie]

I think Sam will thrive at 6 and be the 6 everyone has been crying out for. But he'll have competition from Ewers.

That's not to belittle what Robshaw and Wood have brought. I rate them very highly individually....I just think as a combo it doesn't work.

Lancaster has taken a lot of the "specialist skills" out of certain positions. Now I appreciate rugby progresses however I just feel that has been a mistake.

For example We have a proud history of being tough scrummagers...amongst the best out there...yet this world cup our front row were getting turned inside out and upside down. That's not good.

- - - Updated - - -

Mumbles..
Absolutely, Devoto could be better. But the point is we have centres coming through with more than defence as a skillset. And whilst we thought Twelvtrees would be that player...Leicester moved him on for a reason.

I don't want ANYMORE non English qualifying. We have young English players lets use them...and that goes for Nathan Hughes also.

 

[Peat]

I'd like to tell you I dislike that sort of thing and hold it against him and am very grumpy about nationality of convenience...

... but if we plays well for England I'd probably stop caring.

In fairness, I have no idea how he feels about his heritage. I'm not going to blame a guy for preferring to play for the ABs than for England given the option, in fact you've got to wonder about the intelligence of anyone who'd pick otherwise (... paging outraged of Northampton). It's quite possible he still has a lot of pride in being partially English, just the ABs meant that bit more. It's quite possible he didn't care until he realised ABs weren't happening. Who knows. I like to give the benefit of the doubt to people. Not sure I'd be right this time, but I don't know the guy.

Not that I have any clue what type of player he is at the moment mind...

 

[Geordie]

He's apparently a 25 yo full back/ wing from Auckland Peat.

Im with you....NO THANKS!

Brown, Watson, Hammersley, etc etc lets keep it English.

 

[Peat]

I don't think you read my post properly if you thought I was saying no thanks tbh...

 

[Geordie]

Well im saying no thanks

 

[Mumbles119]

I'd like to tell you I dislike that sort of thing and hold it against him and am very grumpy about nationality of convenience...

... but if we plays well for England I'd probably stop caring.

In fairness, I have no idea how he feels about his heritage. I'm not going to blame a guy for preferring to play for the ABs than for England given the option, in fact you've got to wonder about the intelligence of anyone who'd pick otherwise (... paging outraged of Northampton). It's quite possible he still has a lot of pride in being partially English, just the ABs meant that bit more. It's quite possible he didn't care until he realised ABs weren't happening. Who knows. I like to give the benefit of the doubt to people. Not sure I'd be right this time, but I don't know the guy.

Not that I have any clue what type of player he is at the moment mind...

He played wing/fullback for the Cheifs. But played a lot at centre, stating that:
[FONT=open_sans]
"At provincial level I play 12 and then at Super Rugby I've mainly been used at full-back or on the wing – although I did play a bit at 12 for the Chiefs last year.[/FONT]
[FONT=open_sans]"Gloucester have signed me as a midfielder who can cover positions out wide.[/FONT]
[FONT=open_sans]"When I'm in the midfield I'm more of a distributor rather than crash and bang and in the outside backs I'm the type of player who will pop up anywhere."[/FONT]
[FONT=open_sans] http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.u...tory-25728104-detail/story.html#ixzz3nyJMuh8N[/FONT]

 

[nickdnz]

What about Tom Marshall? The news reports are a little confusing? Is he definitely coming to Gloucester? How do people feel about a player who has been very open about his desire to play for NZ and has always worked towards, but now wants to use his parentage and play for England?

Nope, SCW says England have the best player pool in the world...

Regardless I'm not convinced anyone is going to win a Rugby World Cup with Tom Marshall..

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Mumbles..
Absolutely, Devoto could be better. But the point is we have centres coming through with more than defence as a skillset. And whilst we thought Twelvtrees would be that player...Leicester moved him on for a reason.

I don't want ANYMORE non English qualifying. We have young English players lets use them...and that goes for Nathan Hughes also.

What do you mean Leicester moved him on.

Re non English I'm not against parentage TBH.

 

[Mattybuck]

What do you mean Leicester moved him on.

Re non English I'm not against parentage TBH.

I'm not against it, but weary of it, with the resources and recent junior successes we shouldn't need to go down this route, however if they are eligible and earn it... Game on!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That's what I mean if they are the best player by a distance then fine.

I disagree with 3 year rule, but feel differently about direct blood relations.