England Post-WC discussion

[ratsapprentice]

Why are people getting so erect over Marshall....?

Good player, will be good for Glos... not so sure why people are mentioning his name in the context of international rugby?

 

[Patchey]

That's what I mean if they are the best player by a distance then fine.

I disagree with 3 year rule, but feel differently about direct blood relations.

I think five year residency or moved pre-18 or parentage would be a nice solution to the issues with project players etc.

But in with Nick. From watching Marshall for a Chiefs I don't think he's really going to be the answer. Also, where is 36 playing at Glos if Marshall gets the 12 shirt?

Hill, Devoto and Stephenson are all worthy candidates for the 12 shirt. I also really like Sloan (12/13) and our other young centre at Quins.

One name we haven't let discussed, and maybe a little related to the discussion on 'foreign' players is Tim Sweil...

 

[Mumbles119]

Why are people getting so erect over Marshall....?

Good player, will be good for Glos... not so sure why people are mentioning his name in the context of international rugby?

For me, not really. But I knew very little about him and had seen his name mentioned previously, so wanted more of a view on him.

It certainly seems like Devoto/Hill/Stephenson could well be the future for 12. But as nearly everyone has mentioned before, Slade could well be a perfect fit for Englands needs at 12, however, would his club agree or help with developing him at 12? Are there any actual processes in place for club to help country requirements?

 

[j'nuh]

Why are people getting so erect over Marshall....?

Good player, will be good for Glos... not so sure why people are mentioning his name in the context of international rugby?

We have first-choice problems at 12 and depth problems at 15.

Rumours were that Marshall was in line for an All Black call-up, or was very close to anyway, but would have turned them down because he wants to play for England.

Marshall plays 12 and 15. (Along with 11, 13, 14.)

I mean, I haven't seen too much of him, apart from a few great things on youtube, but it seems like the guy could fill some fairly sizeable holes in our squad.

 

[nickdnz]

We have first-choice problems at 12 and depth problems at 15.

Rumours were that Marshall was in line for an All Black call-up, or was very close to anyway, but would have turned them down because he wants to play for England.

Marshall plays 12 and 15. (Along with 11, 13, 14.)

I mean, I haven't seen too much of him, apart from a few great things on youtube, but it seems like the guy could fill some fairly sizeable holes in our squad.

I doubt very much he was genuinely in the frame to the point he was talking with AB selectors and he was turning them down. The reason he didn't seek early release from the NZRU was because the selectors mentioned early SR season they were looking at him (and inevitably past him for Naholo and NMS) - and considering we have left guys like Jane, Piatau, Dagg, Crotty, Ngatai etc all behind - Tom Marshall was never going to be in the frame this year and not likely the next.

There was talk about him as a possible future prospect - but nothing more than luke warm. As it is he did what he could to stay and be avaliable for the ABs - so I'm skeptical that he has held deep seated England ambitions. Just more opportunism imho.

 

[j'nuh]

Not true. Tom Marshall has a contract with the NZRU lasting until November. Initially, it looked like he was going to be released early from his contract to allow him to link up with Gloucester earlier in the year, but he was then kept because he was in contention for a WC place. It was NZ blocking the early release rather than Tom Marshall not choosing to exercise it.

The rumour is over whether or not he would have turned the All Black selectors down if they did want him. In the end, it never came down to that so I guess we'll never know.

See: http://www.3news.co.nz/sport/tom-marshalls-move-delayed-by-new-zealand-rugby-2015050110

 

[ratsapprentice]

As you say - you haven't seen much of him.

He's the sort of player who will get about 15seconds on a SR highlight video over a season.

I can't say that I've ever spent my Saturday morning SR viewing thinking: "God damn... if only Marshall was English..."

 

[Patchey]

As you say - you haven't seen much of him.

He's the sort of player who will get about 15seconds on a SR highlight video over a season.

I can't say that I've ever spent my Saturday morning SR viewing thinking: "God damn... if only Marshall was English..."

Exactly...

Anyway, no one picked up on it earlier but can we discuss Sweil 4 England 10 please? Thanks.

 

[HowieLO6]

We have first-choice problems at 12 and depth problems at 15.

Rumours were that Marshall was in line for an All Black call-up, or was very close to anyway, but would have turned them down because he wants to play for England.

Marshall plays 12 and 15. (Along with 11, 13, 14.)

I mean, I haven't seen too much of him, apart from a few great things on youtube, but it seems like the guy could fill some fairly sizeable holes in our squad.

Touch wood, that kind of squad player would hopefully be filled by someone of the likes of Daly. As I can't see him ousting JJ on current form, and his position at wasps increasingly 13-centric, he strikes me as the perfect candidate for riding the pine. Would leave both wings, full back and 13 well covered, along with a pretty hefty boot too. None of this A Goode-shaped nonsense, only covering one position.

 

[Mattybuck]

Agree on Daly ideal utility back who could actually provide an impact and a like for like if JJ went off.

 

[Peat]

You realise that pretty much everyone uses a number 23 who only plays one or two positions with the intention of shuffling the backline if needed from time to time, right? In fact, I can't even think of any regular number 23s who'll slot in seamlessly from numbers 11-15 seamlessly. Sure there are some, but it's not really a thing.

The issue isn't that Lancaster did it, its he did it badly.


As for Marshall... I'll wait until we see him, but we're genuinely hard enough up at centre that I wouldn't rule out too many people. But yeah, from what people are saying, I'm not sitting on the edge of my seat for this.

 

[Mattybuck]

Just want AP to start now and see who stands out...

If SL does go, they need to be swift about replacement, as they don't have long before 6N

 

[j'nuh]

Touch wood, that kind of squad player would hopefully be filled by someone of the likes of Daly. As I can't see him ousting JJ on current form, and his position at wasps increasingly 13-centric, he strikes me as the perfect candidate for riding the pine. Would leave both wings, full back and 13 well covered, along with a pretty hefty boot too. None of this A Goode-shaped nonsense, only covering one position.

I can see your point, but don't ask me to touch Wood. I won't do it. I'm more of a Halfpenny kind of guy.

 

[ratsapprentice]

6N Squad - wot I fink, innit....

This is more a "should be made up from" than an exclusive list.
And obviously - we don't even necessarily know who the coach is going to be.

LH Props: Marler, Vunipola, Corbs, Waller
Hookers: Youngs, Hartley, George, LCD, Haywood
TH Props: Cole, Brookes, Wilson, Sinckler, Thomas
Locks: Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood, Itoje
Blindsides: Ewers, Robshaw, Burgess
Opensides: Kvesic, Clifford
Number 8s: Vunipola, Morgan

SH's: Youngs, Robson, Cook, Care
FH's: Ford, Slade, Cipriani, Farrell
IC's: Eastmond, Tuilagi, Hill
OC's: JJ
Wingers: May, Nowell, Rokoduguni, Watson, Wade, Yarde
FB's: Brown, Pennell


From that group, you could still select quite a conservative (in terms of new players) 23, like this, to play Scotland:

1. Marler/Vunipola
2. George
3. Brookes
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Robshaw
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. LCD/Youngs/Hartley
17. Marler/Vunipola/Corbs
18. Sinckler/Thomas
19. Itoje
20. Ewers/Burgess
21. Robson
22. Slade
23. Nowell

Only 2 new senior caps in the starting XV.
Intend to give Kev the entire game, give George 60 minutes to show that his set piece solidity isn't a myth - any extras around the park are a bonus for now.
Similar message to Brookes.

Backline is pretty familiar, but Tuilagi at 12 in the context of those players isn't.

On the bench, I'd like to see LCD get on as quickly as possible, but obviously having two new caps in a single position is a bit of an unnecessary risk.
The same goes for Sinckler, I'm a big fan, and assuming his scrummaging is solid in the run up to the competition, I'd like him to get significant time from the bench.
You could do the same with Thomas, if you are that way inclined too.

Look to give Itoje 30-40 mins for one of the starting locks - doesn't matter which - Joe can do a reasonable job as a TH lock if Big Dave goes off.

Get Robshaw off as soon as you can see the ship is steady - possibly half time if it's a hammering.
Ewers and Burgess are 6's IMO, but can cover 8 too, fundamentally. (Kev can pick the ball up from the scrum if Sam hasn't done it).
I'd like to see us move away from having an 8 on the bench - it's one of my biggest bug-bears of Lancaster's selection.

Robson to get 30 mins.
Slade to get 20 mins.
Nowell to get 20-30 mins at FB, whilst also covering wing and 13.

I can see your point, but don't ask me to touch Wood. I won't do it. I'm more of a Halfpenny kind of guy.

I though that was right up your street, j'nuh?

 

[Patchey]

6N Squad - wot I fink, innit....

This is more a "should be made up from" than an exclusive list.
And obviously - we don't even necessarily know who the coach is going to be.

LH Props: Marler, Vunipola, Corbs, Waller
Hookers: Youngs, Hartley, George, LCD, Haywood
TH Props: Cole, Brookes, Wilson, Sinckler, Thomas
Locks: Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood, Itoje
Blindsides: Ewers, Robshaw, Burgess
Opensides: Kvesic, Clifford
Number 8s: Vunipola, Morgan

SH's: Youngs, Robson, Cook, Care
FH's: Ford, Slade, Cipriani, Farrell
IC's: Eastmond, Tuilagi, Hill
OC's: JJ
Wingers: May, Nowell, Rokoduguni, Watson, Wade, Yarde
FB's: Brown, Pennell


From that group, you could still select quite a conservative (in terms of new players) 23, like this, to play Scotland:

1. Marler/Vunipola
2. George
3. Brookes
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Robshaw
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. LCD/Youngs/Hartley
17. Marler/Vunipola/Corbs
18. Sinckler/Thomas
19. Itoje
20. Ewers/Burgess
21. Robson
22. Slade
23. Nowell

Only 2 new senior caps in the starting XV.
Intend to give Kev the entire game, give George 60 minutes to show that his set piece solidity isn't a myth - any extras around the park are a bonus for now.
Similar message to Brookes.

Backline is pretty familiar, but Tuilagi at 12 in the context of those players isn't.

On the bench, I'd like to see LCD get on as quickly as possible, but obviously having two new caps in a single position is a bit of an unnecessary risk.
The same goes for Sinckler, I'm a big fan, and assuming his scrummaging is solid in the run up to the competition, I'd like him to get significant time from the bench.
You could do the same with Thomas, if you are that way inclined too.

Look to give Itoje 30-40 mins for one of the starting locks - doesn't matter which - Joe can do a reasonable job as a TH lock if Big Dave goes off.

Get Robshaw off as soon as you can see the ship is steady - possibly half time if it's a hammering.
Ewers and Burgess are 6's IMO, but can cover 8 too, fundamentally. (Kev can pick the ball up from the scrum if Sam hasn't done it).
I'd like to see us move away from having an 8 on the bench - it's one of my biggest bug-bears of Lancaster's selection.

Robson to get 30 mins.
Slade to get 20 mins.
Nowell to get 20-30 mins at FB, whilst also covering wing and 13.



I though that was right up your street, j'nuh?

Post of the thread so far.

That squad and that team would make me very happy.

Is Robshaw still your captain in this?

 

[Mattybuck]

Post of the thread so far.

That squad and that team would make me very happy.

Is Robshaw still your captain in this?

Reservations about Manu at 12 but I'd give it a go, might not work but then again could be awesome.

You'd miss solid distribution at 12 but Ford popping Manu through gaps with JJ on his shoulder sounds good to me. JJ is also a good distributor and could easily drop into 12 spot depending on how we'd want to attack.

I'd like to see Beaumont get a look in too, Bill's boy up at Sale..

 

[ratsapprentice]

The way that Watson and Nowell are used is quite important.
If we accept that someone in the backline needs to be an actively physical player.

Watson becoming a legit FB option is critical to our ability to not rely on having physicality in the midfield.

In time you could then pick a backline more like this:

9. Care
10. Ford
11. Nowell
12. Eastmond/Slade
13. JJ
14. Rokoduguni
15. Watson

Or if you wanted to go full on power (whilst not being predictable by just having a truck at 12):

9. Care
10. Ford
11. Yarde
12. Hill
13. JJ
14. Rokoduguni
15. Nowell

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lancaster now open to playing Burgess @ 6

"Bath used him quite creatively - off six and five-man line-outs stood in the centres as a ball carrier," added Lancaster.

"The more he plays the game, the more I'm sure that they will educate him in the whys and wherefores of lifting and jumping.

"From my point of view, I will have to sit back and see how it unfolds."

Fuk me, he really is going to stay isn't he.

 

[Patchey]

The way that Watson and Nowell are used is quite important.

Or if you wanted to go full on power (whilst not being predictable by just having a truck at 12):

9. Care
10. Ford
11. Yarde
12. Hill
13. JJ
14. Rokoduguni
15. Nowell

That is English Gatlandball and I like it...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The way that Watson and Nowell are used is quite important.
If we accept that someone in the backline needs to be an actively physical player.

Watson becoming a legit FB option is critical to our ability to not rely on having physicality in the midfield.

In time you could then pick a backline more like this:

9. Care
10. Ford
11. Nowell
12. Eastmond/Slade
13. JJ
14. Rokoduguni
15. Watson

Or if you wanted to go full on power (whilst not being predictable by just having a truck at 12):

9. Care
10. Ford
11. Yarde
12. Hill
13. JJ
14. Rokoduguni
15. Nowell

So you'd dispense with May who's become a much better all round player, has worked out where the try line is and has the pace to scare anyone? To me it's AW to 15 with JM and AN Other on the wings, probably Roko.