England Post-WC discussion

[Geordie]

As a Bath fan I'd be gutted, would hinder the club massively, however I get what you mean. Devoto will be a player to watch this year and I think will start pushing Eastmond.

Big call to drop Brown, but agree that format may not suit his attacking strengths.

I'd love to see a dynamic back line like that. Big powerful forwards winning ball and dangerous incisive backs.

So you wouldn't pick Marler, Lawes, Parling, or Wood

 

[Mumbles119]

I think too much emphasis is put on having heavyweight backs. It's the job of the forwards to carry and tackle hard. Big back struggle to exploit space.

Like I said Tuilagi ideal to come on with a tiring defence and burst tackle,s, but most world teams can deal with a big centre.

I understand your logic, but in direct opposition to this, I think the arguement could just as easily be to have those players fleet of foot and stepping ability to come on off the bench. I would say it is harder to make that extra yard of pace when you are tired to stretch and attempt a tackle, than to be able to just stand your ground and make the tackle on a guy running straight at you.

 

[HowieLO6]

Can you think of any teams that don't have a couple of heavyweight backs? Wobs, Kuridrani/Folau/AAC, ABs, Nonu/Savea, Bokke, whoever's in the centres, Wales is obvious, Ireland have Henshaw and Bowe...

Not sure I'd be comfy putting my opinion above those coaches. There's really not a lot of space around, and when it is there, it's most often created by big men... not like most of those guys struggle to exploit space either.

Agreed. If we want to innovate, we'd have to think of a solution to stop bigger/more direct opposition from crossing the gainline, because they would. You're right, technique is key, but giving up 2-3 stone will wear down bodies. Granted, all the opposition pairings aren't that big, bu they do invariably have a direct runner to call upon. Even Allende, who I wouldn't have called an out and out bruiser, tips that scales at 100kg+ and is a nightmare to bring down.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Woodward's a mentallist who hasn't been involved in the game for, what, ten years? Jones has got a lot of stock from the Saffa Slaying, but I'm not convinced. We could probably do worse, but I don't think that's who I want.

If Wayne Smith would like to work with Rob Baxter, that might be perfect. Or he can work with Rennie. One of those two. Sorry Chiefs fans everywhere, I wanna burgle at least some of you.

Idle question - if you could steal any one centre in all of rugby to partner Joseph, who would it be?

Nonu. Would also be very happy with Toomua. Or Tuilagi+better distribution.

Agree with the general idea that a centre pairing needs one big guy - as you say, is there some magic way of doing business out there which every international coach is currently failing to see? Maybe, but any given theory (whatever that theory is) is odds on not that magic way. I'm also a firm believer in different types of threat, Gibbs-Guscott for the Lions in 97 is probably my favourite ever centre pairing (although Roberts-Joseph in 2017 could maybe match it if both stay on form ... ) which Tindall-Noon made me want to cut my own heart out with a spoon.

On which note, I'd love to see Devoto-Joseph given a go at the Rec. Eastmond's form dropped off in the second half of the year and there have been rumblings he might head back to league having probably failed to become an international, plus a couple of big games (notably the final) indicated maybe that backline lacked a bit of balance (see above). Before Eastmond's explosion of form which rightly put him into the starting 12 slot and precipitated Bath's expansive gameplan, he and Devoto were battling it out and I always slightly preferred Devoto; he's theoretically the perfect twelve, as a distributor who can also kick (off his left foot) and is also a well-built lad who can run hard lines if required (although probably not used in that capacity enough by Bath)

 

[tsof]

Nonu. Would also be very happy with Toomua. Or Tuilagi+better distribution.

Agree with the general idea that a centre pairing needs one big guy - as you say, is there some magic way of doing business out there which every international coach is currently failing to see? Maybe, but any given theory (whatever that theory is) is odds on not that magic way. I'm also a firm believer in different types of threat, Gibbs-Guscott for the Lions in 97 is probably my favourite ever centre pairing (although Roberts-Joseph in 2017 could maybe match it if both stay on form ... ) which Tindall-Noon made me want to cut my own heart out with a spoon.

On which note, I'd love to see Devoto-Joseph given a go at the Rec. Eastmond's form dropped off in the second half of the year and there have been rumblings he might head back to league having probably failed to become an international, plus a couple of big games (notably the final) indicated maybe that backline lacked a bit of balance (see above). Before Eastmond's explosion of form which rightly put him into the starting 12 slot and precipitated Bath's expansive gameplan, he and Devoto were battling it out and I always slightly preferred Devoto; he's theoretically the perfect twelve, as a distributor who can also kick (off his left foot) and is also a well-built lad who can run hard lines if required (although probably not used in that capacity enough by Bath)

Was interesting to see us play Kyle at 10 to ensure Ollie played at 12 vs Gloucester the other week. Didn't watch the match, but presumably there was a fair bit of interchanging between the two?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Quick thoughts on the main players who featured this tournament:

Marler: One of the big disappointments for me was Marlers form. He's made big strides in the last few years e.g with his carrying and scrummaging but he struggled to have an impact in many aspects of the game.
Needs to address this turning in at the scrum issue otherwise, rigtly or wrongly, he's going to become the new Gethin Jenkins to Referees. Surprised he didn't see a yellow coloured card at any point. Busy around the field for a prop but not as busy around the field as Cole or Youngs. Goes backward when carrying too often, and gave away 3 penalties against the Wallabies. Yikes 4/10 Place in danger

Youngs: I thought he had a good tournament - largely exceeded the admittedly low expectations of him at the set-piece though was a part of the demolished front-row against Australia. I can't see him ever staying oru first choice Hooker for very long because of his lack of weight at scrum-time. When Cowan-Dickie and George are felt to be ready it's likely they will be seen as more complete packages than TN Youngs. Place in danger 6/10

Cole: He's not having the same impact at the breakdown as he perhaps was having a few years ago. Whether this is because of form, or whether other teams are aware of his threat, I'm not sure. Still incredibly important to us until other options join us. Did largely well at the scrum butwas part of a crumbling set-piece against Oz. Ridiculously busy around the field, even if not always impactful. Needs to start taking a more active role as a team leader. Place pretty safe for lack of alternatives until Sinckler and Cooper-Woolley are ready. 6.5/10

Parling: Well, the lineout functioned ok and I've no doubt he played a big part in this. Otherwise he was too quiet for my liking. He's supposed to be a real leader for England but it's never been particularly evident to me. Has shown a good ability to carry in the past, but hasn't shown this recently. Would have been a contender for the captaincy if he could be sure of a place, but frankly there arn't enough aspects of his game at present. In the short term may have a leadership role to play but beyond this, don't expect him to keep his place beyond the six nations. Probably on the way out 5/10

Lawes: Obviously he was ruled out through injury following the Wales game but I think we saw enough of him to know how he was going. I think his performances will start to look more impressive when he plays alongside a tight-head lock who complements him rather than competes with him. Lawes had appeared to improve his carrying game until this tournament and it now seems that was a false dawn. Still has the potential to be a class class act but needs to show it in more than in just fits and starts. Needs to try and improve that carrying game to go with his strengths. Is going to find lock an increasingly competetitive position but I think he'll have some sort of role in Englands future. Place reasonably safe 5/10

Launchbury; Thought he showed his class in patches following return from injury. By far the most tackles against Oz despite not playing the whole game, a ncie offload, some good metres made and a clean break. Put pressure on the Oz half-backs too. I don't think he's fully back tp fitness following the long injury which will be why he didn't play a full 80; I think he deserves some slack. Seems to have put on a little bit of weight but that hasn't stopped him from makign the most tackles and running nicely in the loose. Our most well-rounded lock by some way. Place very safe 7/10

Wood: The stats tell me that he has improved his carrying a great deal, averaging around 30 metres in each of hsi last 3 games. I'm still not convinced. He and Robshaw were both outplayed over the last few games. Again, if he was a better player he'd be a definite leadership candidate - but you've got to get your name on the team sheet first. Gives away too many penalties for my liking and is generally anonymous at the breakdown. Place very much in danger to the likes of Ewers.. 5.5/10

Robshaw; Poor man. You could argue he has been set up to fail by placing him at 7 so that everybody under the sun can point out his lack of openside traits. He went a bit missing this tournament really, a shame because he is typically mr dependable. Didn't make as many tackels as usual, and his carrying game / link work wasn't much in evidence. In working out whether he has a future rol, I would strongly enocurage the coaches to assess him against the proficiencies of a Blinside rather than an Openside. As an openside, he's less good than Warburton, Tipuric, Dusatoir, Zanni, O'Brien, Henry etc...but I'd argue he's a more rounded and better blinside flanker than Wood, Lydiate, Haskell, and others. Has a role to play in this team but probably not as captain. Place in real danger because he's assessed against the criteria of am openside flanker. 5/10

Morgan: Didn't seem ready at all. His carrying was nothing like we've come to expect and he was regularly outdone by Wood, of all people, in this department. Vunipola has really upped his overall workrate and Morgan needs to be able to follow or else fall behind. Still my favourite of our 8's when on form but was no way himself this tournament. Squad place fairly safe but if form doesn't improve the likes of Ewers and Beaumont may push him out sooner rather than later. 5/10

Vunipola: One of our better performers before getting crocked. Big big impact against Wales and Fiji and got through a lot of work particularly against Wales. Has definitely improved his handling and isn't spilling it near as often. One of few to emerge in credit from this farce. Place very safe 7/10

Youngs: Mehhh. One of the more flakey players in this set-up. Since 2011 I've never been completely sure how he will play from one week to the next. Too often this tournament he changed passing direction after pickign the ball up and finding he didn't liekthe options; unless its a planned move such as for Australia's first try it really can cost the backline valuable time and space. His pass seems to have improved a little. There was a time early against Oz when he took a quick tap from a penalty when he should have held on for the kickto touch - the quick tap just contributed to the generally nervy feeling which we were never able to shake ourselves out of. Place pretty safe through lack of other options. 6/10

Farrell: I thought he played pretty well. reliable goal kicking and some decent backline orchestration. Gave away a coupel of penalties against Oz one of which was fairly unforgivable and led to a yellow card. Also, just because he played well doesn't mean Ford deserved to be dropped. In short, did what he did well but Fords second half appearance highlighted once again Farrels limitations. Place pretty safe because he offers something slightly different to Ford and Cipriani - but it may be that a new coaching team would not rate him at all. Will be interesting to see, and also possible that Slade will negate the need for his type of place. 6/10

May: Showed some real fight and we missed him when he went off against Oz. I still don't know if I consider him the most well-rounded of wingers and i wonder whether he will be displaced with time. Doesn't have the stepp;ign ability of some wingers but still an expert and changing direction seamlessly and finding space inside. Beat his share of defenders though usually made fewer metres than Watson. Not entirely out of the woods yet with regards to questions re his defence. Needs to keep form up to keep that place with others knockign on the door 6.5/10

Barritt: A real disappointment, though arguably for the Wales game he was set-up to fail by being played out of position. Made a key defnsive error leading to the Wales try. Tackled his heart out (15) against Oz, but made only a grand total of 10 metres in the two losses. More often than not a stalwart, but too limited ti really be the one to help Englands midfield reach the next level. Coaches seem to rate him highly so I imagine he'll be around for some time, but once we find a player equally good in offence and defence, his time should be up. Reasonably safe for now you'd think. 5/10

Burgess: Let's be fair, he performed better than expected against Waleas but that's not really enough. Showed lots of passion and some strongt ackling - didn't make him ready and doesn't justify his selection; particularly on the bench against Oz and Fiji. England desperately need to learn not to set guys up to fail like they have this world cup with Burgess. Nothing of any note offered on attack, and there wasn't any balance with Barritt next to him. Almost certainly out of the picture already, given new management 5/10

Watson: Probably our best back this torunament and in the warm-ups. Showed a real quality of finishing in some tight spots and beat lots of defenders throughout. I hope he will continue to improve, e.g defensive positioning - perhaps his only real weakness. he could be a world class winger. Place very safe for now 8/10

Brown: Had a good tournament with the exception of the Oz game where he lost it a bit, looked a bit nervy and made a few errors. Got turned over way too many times against Oz. He also seems to be flying a bit too close to the sun with regards his on-field behaviour. Maybe this was needed, though, as it sometimes seems as though he's our only real fighter. Still a really top player and the first name on the teamsheet. Place very secure. 7/10

Ford: Wasn't at his best against Fiji and had a fairly poor series of warm-up games but despite that I thought he was unlucky to be dropped and he made his influence upon our play pretty clear when he came on last saturday. I think he changes our attackign structures dramatically for the better and brings players into the game where perhaps with Farrel the same players might remain under utilised. Fairly safe place but may find himself wrestling with Slade in the coming years. 6.5/10

 

[chippieolamus]

Devoto has the potential to be a fantastic 12 - distributing, defence, size, kicking game. However, I'd be cautious about him, as we thought the same about 12T, and he never quite fulfilled his potential.

 

[Wendigo7]

Argh I hate the size thing, if your a good defender, you'll be just fine.

Look at the japs in defence, some are big, majority forwards but some of the backs are tiny and tackle brilliantly.

9. Robson
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Watson

Slade would purr around Ford. I think Ford's lightyears ahead of the options as an out an out 10. I still think he's world class fly half who would get into any team currently. But, I do think both from a coaching perspective and a lack of secure attacking ball has limited him from being the real talent we see week in week out.

 

[Peat]

I think we spend to much time looking at what others do.

Result is we decide upon a game plan and pick the players to fit. Result is that we may not be picking the best players.

What we should do is look at who are our most talented players, pick them and formulate a game plan that exploits their talents.

I'd trial a 10, 12, 13 of Ford, Slade, Joseph. Brown at FB with either Watson or May one winger and a more powerful winger on the other.

It might not work but why dismiss it out of hand. I don't think the Roberts/Williams Wales combo will enjoy a set of backs that are going to try and run around them rather than through them.

Also sorry about double posts! I've put myself on the naughty step.

Don't think we should worry about world rankings right now! Depressing though they are, they will balance out again over the next 12 months.

What other ways would you suggest of seeing what works and what doesn't work in rugby at the moment? I'm not saying it's the be all and end all, but if everyone else in rugby is doing something, ignoring it doesn't make sense, and I think it falls on people to give reasons why their ideas should be working. How are you planning to create this space?

Also, I'd rather decide upon a game plan and pick the players to fit than pick the best players and hope they're work. Again, that seems to be best practice elsewhere.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Cole: He's not having the same impact at the breakdown as he perhaps was having a few years ago. Whether this is because of form, or whether other teams are aware of his threat, I'm not sure. Still incredibly important to us until other options join us. Did largely well at the scrum butwas part of a crumbling set-piece against Oz. Ridiculously busy around the field, even if not always impactful. Needs to start taking a more active role as a team leader. Place pretty safe for lack of alternatives until Sinckler and Cooper-Woolley are ready. 6.5/10

Has everyone literally forgotten that Wilson exists?! Not to pick on you specifically but I can't fathom why he's dropped so completely out the picture, everyone and his dog is talking about how disappointing Cole has been, yet the player who played tighthead for a year or so while he was injured and put in some top performances doesn't seem to merit a mention.

In general, I agree with nearly everything there except:

Lawes: I wonder if he might never have really been fit, and maybe his disappointing performances were down to fitness more than form.

Morgan: Ditto. Both players' failings possibly point to poor selection

Youngs: I have historically not been a fan of Youngs, but he has regularly been one of England's best performing players over the last year, including the World Cup

Barritt: Cannot agree that Barritt's place is safe, he's not good enough for international rugby and surely any other coaching setup would recognise this

- - - Updated - - -

Devoto has the potential to be a fantastic 12 - distributing, defence, size, kicking game. However, I'd be cautious about him, as we thought the same about 12T, and he never quite fulfilled his potential.

Surely no-one else can possess 12T's unique natural ability to **** up. You cant' teach that kind of quality

 

[Peat]

If I had the power, I would refuse to hire any coach who thought Brad Barritt was worth a place. I might even make them sign a contract agreeing that they can be dismissed immediately without compensation if they picked him. Henry, if you were disappointed by him, what were you expecting?

I'd add we've just recorded our worst World Cup performance and the worst ever by a host. It's one of the more staggering pieces of underachieving in all sporting history. If only one person was less than 5/10, then I don't understand the scoring being used.

 

[j'nuh]

I had a bit of a revelation earlier. The perfect England pack for the next Six Nations.

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. ?
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Croft (c)
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola

16. Youngs/LCD
17. Mullan
18. ?
19. Ewers
20. Morgan

Let me justify:
1. Croft is my master stroke. Launchbury/Itoje normally wouldn't work because neither are top lineout jumpers as far as I am aware. Croft allows us to get away with this. Likewise, Croft is usually criticised for playing a little looser than most forwards. It was a problem when we had a useless, plodding second row. But Launchbury/Itoje has a superior work rate and lets us get away with using Croft. Croft is a clear captaincy option and has a loose carrying game better than any other forward in England.
2. Vunipola/Morgan, either can start dependent on form. Obvious reasons. Mako and George adds extra tight carrying.
3. Kvesic/Launchbury/Croft gives us a very decent breakdown game.
4. We don't necessarily need a lock on the bench, as Croft can cover there, kind of. So I couldn't resist having Ewers. But Ewers can be replaced with someone like Slater or Beaumont.
5. Tighthead to be filled out dependent on scrummaging needs.
6. If Itoje isn't ready (but I suspect he will be), he can be replaced by any of the million high work rate second rows we have around at the minute.

The only pitfall is that it requires a bit of faith that Croft won't break within the next 10 minutes of rugby he plays, and that he'll return to form from his most recent injury.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I like that lock back row balance TBH pretty handy.

That's IF Croft Stays fit and gets back to form.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

A particularly violent sneeze could see Croft out for a year. Also Wilson at 3 surely? Better scrummager than Cole IMO and his lack of work around the park should be made up for the decent job he does when in place and the extra mobility elsewhere. Also Croft is known to go missing when there is forwards work, acting more like a back at times isn't he?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

A particularly violent sneeze could see Croft out for a year. Also Wilson at 3 surely? Better scrummager than Cole IMO and his lack of work around the park should be made up for the decent job he does when in place and the extra mobility elsewhere. Also Croft is known to go missing when there is forwards work, acting more like a back at times isn't he?

Hence why he had Itojie, Launchbury and Kvesic in his pack.

 

[Peat]

Also Croft is known to go missing when there is forwards work, acting more like a back at times isn't he?

A common position which I heavily disagree with; that said, the idea is clearly to have the locks play tight-ish and allow Croft to play fairly wide. I'd probably have Slater ahead of Itoje if looking for someone for close quarters.

You could move Itoje to 6 and stick in a jumper lock and get roughly the same effect as J'nuh's pack too.

 

[Aristodemus]

Itoje is a very good jumper, I'm not sure it is needed to have another at 6, although it would be nice.

 

[barkinghooker]

Has everyone literally forgotten that Wilson exists?! Not to pick on you specifically but I can't fathom why he's dropped so completely out the picture, everyone and his dog is talking about how disappointing Cole has been, yet the player who played tighthead for a year or so while he was injured and put in some top performances doesn't seem to merit a mention.

I heard since the Denver training camp he's now mistook for being Iain Balshaw!

 

[Mattybuck]

I'm not anti heavy weights backs. If we had a Jamie Roberts he would be in, but at the moment we don't.

Agree that Devo at Bath has everything to be a 12, however on previous seasons he is not there yet but this is a big season for him. Hoping he takes it up a gear...

Feel for Wilson, came back from injury and played his heart out for England when not match fit... Didn't even get a look in at the RWC.

Have to say the front row underperformance was probably the most alarming aspect along with breakdown.

Got a lot of time for Kitchenor and Slater... Good players

 

[RedruthRFC]

Has everyone literally forgotten that Wilson exists?! Not to pick on you specifically but I can't fathom why he's dropped so completely out the picture, everyone and his dog is talking about how disappointing Cole has been, yet the player who played tighthead for a year or so while he was injured and put in some top performances doesn't seem to merit a mention.

Good point. His profile in the WC has been so low that I must admit that I double checked the squad to make sure that he was part of it and that I hadn't forgotten an injury!