England Post-WC discussion

[Peat]

Clifford won't be England's 7 because he's not an openside, and Eddie Jones wants an openside.

Not sure you can say that with such confidence. I can't say Broadhurst really struck me as an openside (although I may be misremembering). I'd be a bit puzzled if he didn't go for Kvesic, but if he's looking for ball carriers, pace and linking first and foremost, I can see how Clifford might win that one.

But I don't think we really know what Jones wants with England yet tbh.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fair point!
No idea on Japan's stocks at openside though - I just presumed that being-from-a-country-other-than-England-(-and-especially-from-Australia-)- he has an understanding of real openside play.

 

[McTallshort]

Clifford won't be England's 7 because he's not an openside, and Eddie Jones wants an openside.

If its in the mail its normally correct

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If its in the mail its normally correct

I refuse to believe this.

I want to believe we'll finally have an openside flanker.

 

[Peat]

Fair point!
No idea on Japan's stocks at openside though - I just presumed that being-from-a-country-other-than-England-(-and-especially-from-Australia-)- he has an understanding of real openside play.

The man who discovered George Smith - played Smith and Waugh in the WC final - yup, he probably does.

But then Lancaster was an openside himself. Knowing the position and deciding to utilise it are two different things.

Maybe he sees Clifford as a player he could mould into a better future openside than the competition. Maybe his emphasis will be ball carrying. Maybe this is all balls. Guess we'll see.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Maybe he sees Clifford as a player he could mould into a better future openside than the competition.

He's facking mental then!
I could see Clifford taking the Tom Croft mould of pacey blindside who's good at the lineout to the next/more rounded level, but I just can't see him competing with the Pococks/Hoopers/Canes/Tipurics of the world at the breakdown.

As an aside I'm surprised he's "only" 6ft4.
I would've said he was considerably taller than the likes of Pocock/Mccaw et al. but he's only 2 inches.

 

[Peat]

*shrugs* Would personally wait to see what Jones can do with the players before getting too het up about what he can and can't do with them.

Clifford could well become a more physical version of Hooper/Tipuric - quick, skillful, great carrier, supports well, links well, will win turnovers if opponent becomes isolated (but not if forced to sustain heavy clear outs like Pocock can). I think we need that type of openside more than Pocock tbh. Our lack of support play and ball carrying has been more of an issue than our ability to effect turnovers.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Can someone please sensibly explain to me why Clifford is not an openside?


All the games I've seen him play, he plays like hooper. A very physical link man who is great at the breakdown.


I get a bit annoyed when people fail to believe a player can become a better openside than kvesic (obviously excluding Seymour the greatest openside known to man).

 

[ratsapprentice]

Potentially because you don't want your 7 to be carrying all the time, which would be a waste if he's one of your better carriers.

Just a quick thought... we know Eddie has a penchant for picking someone other than his 10 as the primary goalkicker.
We also know he is a Cipriani fan.

Increases the chances of Farrell at 12 IMO.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If its in the mail its normally correct

Mail isn't trustworthy now that Lancaster is gone

They had no clue about who was going to be assistant coaches.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's actually normally Foy, not Simon who is accurate for the DM - so this isn't as ironclad as they sometimes are.

But the press have been saying that Eddie likes Clifford for a number of weeks.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

People mentioning Du Plessis for a short term England TH what with Brookes injured and Coke out of form.

Not sure I agree with that TBH.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Who is?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Been playing well but first things first, he's South African. Secondly he is not fit enough for intl' rugby.
How come everytime we sign a prop they seem to be looked at by England i.e Longbottom.
We have Sinkler and Cooper-Wooley behind Henry Thomas, why look elsewhere ?

 

[ZeroTwo]

Du Plessis is a nice reliable TH at club level, I see none of the spark needed for international. We've had a dominant pack this year from 1-8 but I tend to believe that it's more about a consistent level of quality throughout rather than any truly special players (Brits and Billy asides). Not sure he'd work internationally.

How has Sinkler been this season?

 

[ratsapprentice]

How has Sinkler been this season?

Decent to good... not been starting, so hard to say any more than that.

 

[Peat]

Potentially because you don't want your 7 to be carrying all the time, which would be a waste if he's one of your better carriers.

Just a quick thought... we know Eddie has a penchant for picking someone other than his 10 as the primary goalkicker.
We also know he is a Cipriani fan.

Increases the chances of Farrell at 12 IMO.

Australia manage it with Hooper and it's not unusual to see McCaw used a focal point in attack though.


Cipriani/Ford competing at 10 with Farrell/Slade as 12s and goalkickers when needed does sound fairly Jones-esque and possibly workable.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Honestly would have no problem with a front row of Cole-George/Hartley-M. Vunipola.

1. Dan Cole
2. Jamie George
3. Mako Vunipola
4. Maro Itoje
5. Joe Launchbury
6. Dave Ewers
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Billy Vunipola

9. Danny Care
10. Danny Cipriani
11. Jonny May
12. Owen Farrell
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Semesi Rokoduguni
15. Mike Brown

Feel this has a nice balance to it.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Honestly would have no problem with a front row of Cole-George/Hartley-M. Vunipola.

1. Dan Cole
2. Jamie George
3. Mako Vunipola
4. Maro Itoje
5. Joe Launchbury
6. Dave Ewers
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Billy Vunipola

9. Danny Care
10. Danny Cipriani
11. Jonny May
12. Owen Farrell
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Semesi Rokoduguni
15. Mike Brown

Feel this has a nice balance to it.

Interesting call having Mako tight and Coley loose but I like it

It's the core of a good team certainly, but I think I'd move Itoje to six and put the biggest available second row in (When's Attwood back from injury? And anyone think Dom Barrow's in with a chance any time soon?). That gives three excellent line out options.

Something about those backs makes me feel very sad. Can't imagine that would play much more than a territory and bosh game, even with Cips at 10 and Farrell in the form of his life.

 

[Aristodemus]

Farrell is getting the armchair ride of his life. Sarries utter dominance is purely down to the the pack, any premiership backline would be tearing it up behind that.