England Post-WC discussion

[ZeroTwo]

Interesting call having Mako tight and Coley loose but I like it

It's the core of a good team certainly, but I think I'd move Itoje to six and put the biggest available second row in (When's Attwood back from injury? And anyone think Dom Barrow's in with a chance any time soon?). That gives three excellent line out options.

Something about those backs makes me feel very sad. Can't imagine that would play much more than a territory and bosh game, even with Cips at 10 and Farrell in the form of his life.

Tighthead, loosehead, tomato, tomato. It's all a mystery what happens up there to us backs. I just know one gets paid more than the other because they have to cuddle with more of the opposition in scrums.

My vision for that backline was Cips/Care/Farrell all running lines to let either huge muscle or lightning speed through. Opposition not knowing whether to put a flanker in to stop Manu or Roko or whether to commit a centre/wing to stop May or Brown. Huge amount of carrying potential from forwards to make some hard yards.

Strongly believe that Itoje's current best position is second row. Would say he was definitely strong enough. Maybe Kruis to start ahead of him to give some oomph (yes I recognise the Saracens bias here).

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

The advantage of a backline like that, I suppose, is that it can look after itself even on slower, back foot ball. Compare and contrast with recent England backlines, with about 0.5 effective carriers overall if you count Burrell or Barritt.

Which I don't.

 

[Peat]

Assuming Fazlet can do a playmaking 12 thing, any backs coach who can't get more than a territory and bosh game out of that backline should do the decent thing and resign imo.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Farrell a play maker? I actually lolled when I read that.

The ice man Farrell is certainly no play maker. I don't think he has a creative bone is his body.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Farrell a play maker? I actually lolled when I read that.

The ice man Farrell is certainly no play maker. I don't think he has a creative bone is his body.

....really?

 

[McTallshort]

Assuming Fazlet can do a playmaking 12 thing, any backs coach who can't get more than a territory and bosh game out of that backline should do the decent thing and resign imo.

I dont see how he wont be able to do the playmaking thing, I think he has been a bit unfairly sterotyped in the past (by me on occasion) and I wouldnt object to a Youngs/Cips/Farrell axis being tried this 6N while Ford works on his form with Bath...who are also working on their form

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Farrell a play maker? I actually lolled when I read that.

The ice man Farrell is certainly no play maker. I don't think he has a creative bone is his body.

Thats a bit harsh and a bit silly given his form this season

 

[Peat]

I dont see how he wont be able to do the playmaking thing, I think he has been a bit unfairly sterotyped in the past (by me on occasion) and I wouldnt object to a Youngs/Cips/Farrell axis being tried this 6N while Ford works on his form with Bath...who are also working on their form

I wouldn't object to that axis being given a go, but can see it going wrong as well as going right; Farrell's improved a lot and has done great behind a dominant pack, but I'm not expecting one of those. His running threat is very low when people are watching for it and I'm not a hundred per cent sold on his vision and technical ability (particularly passing to his left). But maybe having two very quick half-backs and a legion of strike runners will improve him too; it's not like the Sarries back line is a playmakers dream.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Sad but true and just not sinking in for some people

I wouldn't object to that axis being given a go, but can see it going wrong as well as going right; Farrell's improved a lot and has done great behind a dominant pack, but I'm not expecting one of those. His running threat is very low when people are watching for it and I'm not a hundred per cent sold on his vision and technical ability (particularly passing to his left). But maybe having two very quick half-backs and a legion of strike runners will improve him too; it's not like the Sarries back line is a playmakers dream.

Saracens play a structure, it doesn't matter who stands where, they know their jobs and at the moment every one of them is pretty much excelling at it. Farrell is in fine form within that structure. But I've seen plenty of Sarries this season and if you want the man who sees the trickier passes and is generally more "creative" you're going to have to roll back the years and play Charlie Hodgson. Note this isn't a dig at Farrell (or Sarries for that matter sport is primarily about winning). When he's on the pitch he does his job more than competently. But due to the way Saracens play and the strength of their pack Farrell doesn't have to exercise any "creative" talents he has. Saracens will simply grind the guts out of teams by playing their structures and Farrell is good enough at premiership level to take full advantage. However, he is in my view clearly not as instinctive as Ford or naturally as expansive as Cipriani. Again, that's not a dig it's just as I see it. Certainly at the moment Ford's instincts are well awry and he's looking like the liability that I fear Lancaster thought he might be. Cipriani on the other hand seems to just consistently roll out very good performances.

Saracens play more than the sum of their parts. Bravo to good coaches and committed players! But picking Saracen's players for England must be done with caution in my opinion. The uncertainty of a different structure doesn't naturally sit well with all players. Personally I think Brad Barritt is a colossally admirable character. Basically he smashes his opposition number pretty much into submission in pretty much every game. That's not an easy thing to do. That said he's about as creative as Milli Vanilli and passing? Well it's not really his thing. For Saracens he's a square peg in a square hole. At international level I'd expect the pegs and the holes to be more, er rounded! In my view to a lessee extent the same goes for Ashton, Farrell and Good and possibly Itojie (though he looks class).

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I wouldn't object to that axis being given a go, but can see it going wrong as well as going right; Farrell's improved a lot and has done great behind a dominant pack, but I'm not expecting one of those. His running threat is very low when people are watching for it and I'm not a hundred per cent sold on his vision and technical ability (particularly passing to his left). But maybe having two very quick half-backs and a legion of strike runners will improve him too; it's not like the Sarries back line is a playmakers dream.

Is Farrell left handed?

 

[Peat]

Is Farrell left handed?

Sorry, meant to say passing off of his left - he's quite visibly not left handed!

edit:

Yoshimitsu - completely agree Hodgson has been the main creative force there. My point there was a lot of Saracens' backs aren't great attacking forces in their own right, it's not like Farrell has people picking the greatest lines or drawing tons of attention all day long and would benefit from them - although fair enough to point out Hodgson got a lot more out of it. Although Hodgson would get more out of most backlines than the incumbent tbh.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Definitely - It'd be interesting to see what the percentage of Sarries tries going left/right are with Hodgson/Farrell.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Mike Catt was never seen as the most creative of players. I feel Farrell could be moulded into a similar player.

He has a decent chip, takes the kicking pressure off others, brings the wingers and 13 into the game a lot more with the long pass. He's done it for England tries a number of times, looping a pass over the defending winger to a lock to just fall over the line.

Just need him not to try and play a conventional running 12 role.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ryan Mills & Manu Tuilagi Dream Team™


I've never liked Farrell at 12, but he does seem to be a viable option at the moment solely because there's no really obvious choice. I'd take him over Burrell, for example, but only as a stop gap until someone else is apparent (*cough*Manu*cough*).
I'd go for Devoto, but doubt Jones will.


Farrell being considered as a 10/12 rather than solely a 10 would also open the door slightly for Cipriani, which would be ace as any shred of faith I had in Ford has scarpered this season.

 

[Peat]

How's Devoto doing? He's beginning to get a whiff of Twelvetrees mk 2 from where I'm sitting.

Mills would fit the general model except he can't kick. I quite like the idea of a kicker at 12 while we wait for Ford to grow up a little more. From what I've seen, people are exaggerating his issues, and if Ford and Fazlet swapped teams then we'd also swap our ideas of who should be playing for England, but I'd prefer a more mature guy who's more used to being up against it to take the reins (i.e. Cips).

Of course, Slade basically ticks every box, except for actually playing 12. But that's the sort of gamble I think is worth taking.

Oh yeah. And the box ticked fit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Mills can't kick?
I'll admit I've not followed him 100% of his career but I've always thought he was a good kicker - especially for a 12. I mean he had spent a decent part of his rugby life at flyhalf.
Unless you mean goal kicking? In which case I can't speak for it, though I do remember him kicking at Gloucester occasionally.
In any case, Cipriani's goal kicking has come on massively the past few weeks - think he's 100% for his last 3 games. Got a feeling it was an England hangover that was causing (part) of his problems before. I know that in the past England have asked players to change their kicking styles, and I can't think why else a player as experienced as Cipriani would suddenly lose 25%+ off of his kicking stats.

I would love to see Slade at 12, though - Slade/Tuilagi could be spectacular. It's such a shame that he is (well, both are) injured for this 6N.



Also on Ford v Farrell, I've never seen Farrell fall apart as spectacularly as Ford. He's been on the wrong end of some ****ty results with England, but Farrell vs the Wales hammering is still far better than Ford on a bad day.
Ford, on form, is the better 10, but he fluctuates between 100 and 0, whereas Faz will fluctuate between 80 and 40. I'd rather the latter.

 

[Peat]

Goal kicking, aye. I'd imagine he's kicked a wee bit - but then plenty of players have kicked a wee bit. Ben Youngs has, I'm not going to ask him to take shots at goal for England!

Cips/Slade/Tuilagi might be my theoretical perfect England unit at the moment, even if Cips' goal kicking is back to the standard where we don't definitely need someone else (tbh, I wish goal kicking belonged to someone else anyway).

Farrell is rarely seen to fall apart the way Ford does because he's not the same sort of focal point. In any case, let us tell both to go back to the creche and trust in the Blessed Cips, until he turns out to be crap as well.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't understand the love in with Devoto - strikes me that he's in a position where he's not under that much scrutiny from those watching Bath week in/out.

 

[Mumbles119]

I don't understand the love in with Devoto - strikes me that he's in a position where he's not under that much scrutiny from those watching Bath week in/out.

I would say it is the potential he has, rather than what he has proven. As @TRF_Peat said earlier, Devoto is similar to Twelvetrees, in that if you looked at both of them without ever watching them play, they fit the mould of a big all rounder play making 12. However, in truth as we know, Twelvetrees turns out to be inconsistent with a working brain; I really hope that Devoto can live up to future potential and not be hit and miss.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The main issue I have is Sarries forwards tend to make the Sarries backs look good. Farrell is getting the armchair ride of his life and even some like Barritt isn't a liability because the forwards give them such good ball. I worry Jones may go the same way as Lancaster to start with by looking at Sarries dominance and selecting Sarries backs with other clubs forwards.

 

[Mumbles119]

England rugby related - but slightly off piste... this has come up yet again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35204504

Coincidently it seems this bill will be brought to Parliament on the same day Eddie is due to announce the new EPS - 13th January