[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[Raggs]

Why 5-6 though? I'd imagine that most plays are scripted for perhaps 3-4 phases after a restart, and it's when the script runs out that Farrell struggles. It's also those quick balls, spotting the space even though you're in your own 22 etc, that I'd never expect Farrell to spot or exploit, Fords vision gets us points. Ford will keep trying things, even when his team is getting battered, yes he needs more experience, but we've clearly seen that he can peg the corners with the best of them (Aus game was a beautiful example of just putting his pack in the right places).

As to the lineup I posted, yes, the 4 suggested are the 4 I consider to be very good carriers. Launch is an odd one, he doesn't often beat defenders, but if he has a bit of space he has deceptive pace and a beautiful offload, so I'd class as a good carrier, but not someone who I'd rely on in a mudbath against a tight defence.

That pack is also very good in the breakdown, it's a strong pack overall, but as I said, I don't know if it has the pace to keep up with a rapid fire attack without ending up with lots of isolated players. Swapping Robshaw for Croft would certainly help that.

 

[TobesHodges]

Why 5-6 though? I'd imagine that most plays are scripted for perhaps 3-4 phases after a restart, and it's when the script runs out that Farrell struggles. It's also those quick balls, spotting the space even though you're in your own 22 etc, that I'd never expect Farrell to spot or exploit, Fords vision gets us points. Ford will keep trying things, even when his team is getting battered, yes he needs more experience, but we've clearly seen that he can peg the corners with the best of them (Aus game was a beautiful example of just putting his pack in the right places).

As to the lineup I posted, yes, the 4 suggested are the 4 I consider to be very good carriers. Launch is an odd one, he doesn't often beat defenders, but if he has a bit of space he has deceptive pace and a beautiful offload, so I'd class as a good carrier, but not someone who I'd rely on in a mudbath against a tight defence.

That pack is also very good in the breakdown, it's a strong pack overall, but as I said, I don't know if it has the pace to keep up with a rapid fire attack without ending up with lots of isolated players. Swapping Robshaw for Croft would certainly help that.

Your absolutely right about Launchbury he reminds of Rettalick, subtle skills and a nice turn of pace.

I don't think we can afford to drop Robshaw, leadership, breakdown work, and defensive duties are to good.

Ford was good in that Aus game, but in the premiership final he was like a rabbit in head lights and didn't do anything that you've mentioned and Farrell showed him a lesson that game, also in the big Ireland 6N he failed to put the team around the park again when it was required of him..

 

[Raggs]

Robshaw doesn't have the pace to keep up with breaks from Joseph/Roko/Ford etc, not many in that pack do, and that's an issue. That pack would be a beast at the breakdown, with or without Robshaw, and tackle count for every player in that pack is normally through the roof for their own sides, whilst doing a lot of breakdown work. Captaincy may be an issue, but Croft provides pace, good breakdown work as well, and a very good lineout option. It'll never happen of course, but I'd seriously consider running that pack.

EDIT - Ford in the final was nothing like a rabbit in the headlights. He was trying everything in his reportoire to boost Bath and get them playing, he had bugger all help from his pack, and no power running option in his backs to help out. Ford takes on a massive amount of the game for Bath, almost every play goes through him, without help, he has to try things (the crossfield kicks, the attempted breaks etc etc). Ford was doing a lot of stuff in the Bath way (which unfortunately doesn't include pegging the corners, he's shown he can do that if it's what's asked of him), but he had very very little help.

 

[goodNumber10]

Robshaw doesn't have the pace to keep up with breaks from Joseph/Roko/Ford etc, not many in that pack do, and that's an issue. That pack would be a beast at the breakdown, with or without Robshaw, and tackle count for every player in that pack is normally through the roof for their own sides, whilst doing a lot of breakdown work. Captaincy may be an issue, but Croft provides pace, good breakdown work as well, and a very good lineout option. It'll never happen of course, but I'd seriously consider running that pack.

I don't follow are you saying Richie McCaw keeps up with Savea? Surely it's about reading the game not pace, and Robshaw has no problems in reading the game.

EDIT - Ford in the final was nothing like a rabbit in the headlights. He was trying everything in his reportoire to boost Bath and get them playing, he had bugger all help from his pack, and no power running option in his backs to help out. Ford takes on a massive amount of the game for Bath, almost every play goes through him, without help, he has to try things (the crossfield kicks, the attempted breaks etc etc). Ford was doing a lot of stuff in the Bath way (which unfortunately doesn't include pegging the corners, he's shown he can do that if it's what's asked of him), but he had very very little help.

Then surely Ford is massively at fault for not switching the game plan up and reverting to a territory/moving forward game plan, or what ever was needed?

As you say the 10 is one of the key decision makers in the Team, and the Half Backs for Bath run everything if they fails to recognise that it would have been better to turn Sarries and play in their Red zone then what hope of the rest of the team delivering that game plan?

He can't have it both ways, he can't be a leader then be absolved of the blame when the wheels come off the wagon.

Ford of all the English 10's has had an absolute armchair ride since joining the England team, we're still to see him put under the pump in ways that Farrell has been and learn how he'll react to it (poorly if Ireland is anything to go by).

 

[Tony Manx]

Sorry...error!!

 

[Maverick1987]

I don't follow are you saying Richie McCaw keeps up with Savea? Surely it's about reading the game not pace, and Robshaw has no problems in reading the game.



Then surely Ford is massively at fault for not switching the game plan up and reverting to a territory/moving forward game plan, or what ever was needed?

As you say the 10 is one of the key decision makers in the Team, and the Half Backs for Bath run everything if they fails to recognise that it would have been better to turn Sarries and play in their Red zone then what hope of the rest of the team delivering that game plan?

He can't have it both ways, he can't be a leader then be absolved of the blame when the wheels come off the wagon.

Ford of all the English 10's has had an absolute armchair ride since joining the England team, we're still to see him put under the pump in ways that Farrell has been and learn how he'll react to it (poorly if Ireland is anything to go by).

Ford was poor in the Ireland game and probably by his own admission too . There was various things he could have done that would have improved matters . Would we have won the game if Farrell played ? Who knows . All I care about is that ford learns from these things . He's a young guy and I'd bet a lot of money on him being twice the player of Farrell in years to come ....

The coaches have switched and changed their minds too many times already but to me Ford seems like the right person to go to long term unless Slade can shift him in a few years

 

[Peat]

Ford of all the English 10's has had an absolute armchair ride since joining the England team, we're still to see him put under the pump in ways that Farrell has been and learn how he'll react to it (poorly if Ireland is anything to go by).

Having rewatched the game, I'm not sure he did as badly as all that. There were a few shaky moments where he went for marginal options and got punished but mostly he seemed to select good options and get us moving when we did have the ball.

The big question over his performance in that game is "Was Ford kicking too long for his chasers, or were his chasers lazy?"

Ultimately, bad discipline and losing the kicking battle is what cost us that game. If you think Ford was kicking poorly, then yes, he did poorly. If you think he put the ball in decent spots and his chasers did a poor job... I think I tend towards that option to be honest, at least on most of them. Some were poor. At the very least, I think Ford was average that game.

Incidentally, given my numerous instances of questioning him, I should also point out that Marler had a bloody decent game against Ireland, if albeit not quite as punishing as Ross in the scrum as one might have hoped. He was the pick of our forwards... and I actually genuinely think Ford might have been the pick of our backs, now I think about it.

We *have* to learn how to hide him in defence though.

We also ignored the overlap a lot in that game.

 

[j'nuh]

"Fear overwhelms David Wilson as he realises he may be the last to the ice cream van."

(Img: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_...by-world-cup-training-leaves-andy-farrell-awe)

 

[Peat]

That pack is also very good in the breakdown, it's a strong pack overall, but as I said, I don't know if it has the pace to keep up with a rapid fire attack without ending up with lots of isolated players. Swapping Robshaw for Croft would certainly help that.

Having mulled this one over, I think you're wrong.

Firstly, it's pretty close to the pack we had this 6N, and Joseph, Youngs et al were fine then. Yes, to a certain extent that was them finishing tries off before oppo could respond, or backs supporting backs, but that's fine for me - if it works it works, and it has worked. Sometimes you don't even need the forwards.

Secondly, while it's not a fast pack, I think you might be overestimating the amount of speed needed. Hask's not a speed demon for my money, not these days, but he's still involved in Watson's try against France off a 50m break - if he can do it, then you'd like to think most back rows could. Robshaw is usually our second player into the collision from restarts when chasing properly, he's not that slow. The Flowerpot Men have both shown decent turns of pace at times. Obviously Launchbury would be a fantastic addition here.

It would be great to have someone like Croft involved for supporting those breaks, but I think we'd survive without.

I also think doing more tactical kicking is going to require our kickchase receiving a boot filled with dynamite up the khyber.

 

[Raggs]

Having rewatched the game, I'm not sure he did as badly as all that. There were a few shaky moments where he went for marginal options and got punished but mostly he seemed to select good options and get us moving when we did have the ball.

The big question over his performance in that game is "Was Ford kicking too long for his chasers, or were his chasers lazy?"

Ultimately, bad discipline and losing the kicking battle is what cost us that game. If you think Ford was kicking poorly, then yes, he did poorly. If you think he put the ball in decent spots and his chasers did a poor job... I think I tend towards that option to be honest, at least on most of them. Some were poor. At the very least, I think Ford was average that game.

It was our chasers. It was ridiculous. The absolutely best example of how awfully organised we are on that front is when we won a free kick on the left handside of the pitch, and kicked into/just outside of their 22. Free kick, meaning everyone is available to chase and put on pressure, and the two who were first up trying to make the tackle and put on pressure? Robshaw and Billy V... and that was a regular feature btw it wasn't just a one off. Now those two weren't bad at applying a bit of pressure, but they were never going to make it in the air. No one else seemed too bothered about chasing.

Having mulled this one over, I think you're wrong.

Firstly, it's pretty close to the pack we had this 6N, and Joseph, Youngs et al were fine then. Yes, to a certain extent that was them finishing tries off before oppo could respond, or backs supporting backs, but that's fine for me - if it works it works, and it has worked. Sometimes you don't even need the forwards.

Secondly, while it's not a fast pack, I think you might be overestimating the amount of speed needed. Hask's not a speed demon for my money, not these days, but he's still involved in Watson's try against France off a 50m break - if he can do it, then you'd like to think most back rows could. Robshaw is usually our second player into the collision from restarts when chasing properly, he's not that slow. The Flowerpot Men have both shown decent turns of pace at times. Obviously Launchbury would be a fantastic addition here.

It would be great to have someone like Croft involved for supporting those breaks, but I think we'd survive without.

I also think doing more tactical kicking is going to require our kickchase receiving a boot filled with dynamite up the khyber.

I felt we got turned over far too much in the 6N when we went wide and started looking like making breaks, so saying it mostly looks like the 6N pack doesn't look great to me .

 

[Peat]

I felt we got turned over far too much in the 6N when we went wide and started looking like making breaks, so saying it mostly looks like the 6N pack doesn't look great to me .

I will have a more complete answer for this in time assuming my current boredom continues, but looking at the Ireland game, the one where we lost the most rucks...

1st ruck lost - Ford receives exit box kick with no support and a ton of Irish chasers; no shock, only real question is why ask Ford, the single worst-equipped player for the situation, to be standing there? Might have got away with it with, say, Billy.

2nd ruck lost - Alex Goode receives exit box kick but is able to offload to Nowell, who offloads to Hartley, who goes to ground and the ball is knocked on somewhere in that ruck

3rd ruck lost - Kruis receives the ball out wide when counter-attacking from a kick and decides to straighten; Sean O'Brien gets over it and Owens calls England advantage over. However, there were forwards there; Cole, Hartley and Marler were all in attendance. But Cole slid straight off O'Brien and Hartley and Marler couldn't wrestle him once set. Maybe slightly slow to get there?

4th ruck lost - Pretty much centre of park, Billy steals a few yards off of Henshaw in the tackle and maybe gets a little too isolated; Best is over it, Cole slides off again, Haskell can't stop Best ripping the ball, my notes say Attwood was there too, I can't recall what part he took but it can't have been useful.

5th ruck lost - Burrell get eaten alive by Sexton and Henshaw after his dummy isn't brought following the half-backs shovelling on the ball after the maul nearly goes into touch; if Burrell had also shovelled it on there was an overlap on. Instead he got banjaxed and penalised for holding on.

6th ruck lost - This comes a few phases after the big break Ford made up the middle (which notably got plenty of support). Robshaw carried in, Attwood's right there but failed to do anything to the jackal, Ben Youngs is the next man in, Kruis hits hard but is too late... we're about 10 out from the 22, 20 in from the touchline, third phase of possession after a break, there's no excuse for the forwards not to be there.

7th ruck lost - Sexton kicks in behind Watson, Watson and Goode both go for it and collide, Zebo wrestles Watson off feet too easily for my liking, England are having to flood back and Ireland drive over and pick it up. When Goode, Youngs, Ford and Joseph are your guys in the ruck, you're screwed. This one led to Henshaw's try btw, so yay!

8th ruck lost - Haskell takes on second phase after Alex Goode's kick return. Robshaw, Kruis and Marler were waiting but fail to shift Martin Moore's gigantic posterior. Support was there, although Robshaw has to check and turn in approach to ruck, while Marler seems to fanny around somewhat.


Now, admittedly, Ireland isn't the best example, as England didn't really do much in the way of expansive attack, and what we did got let down by Nowell getting bundled into touch, Watson developing bad colour-blindness when offloading, and Twelvetrees' passing, but we are perfectly capable of turning over the ball in any situation!

There's the odd occasion I think where I look at England getting turned over and think its mainly due to a lack of support in the area (Ford vs France might be another), but most of the ones I'm seeing, the support is there and the support is inadequate. So far the closest thing I've seen to what you say is Dylan Hartley charging off from the back of a maul against Wales... but assuming it comes up only once a match or so, I think that's still overall a win. And a more physical, industrious backline would help in this situation nearly as much as more pace in the back row.

edit: I'd also point out that Youngs and Ford rarely break out wide, but instead tend to go through fringe defences, which lessens the stress on their supporting runners.

 

[goodNumber10]

I will have a more complete answer for this in time assuming my current boredom continues, but looking at the Ireland game, the one where we lost the most rucks...

1st ruck lost - Ford receives exit box kick with no support and a ton of Irish chasers; no shock, only real question is why ask Ford, the single worst-equipped player for the situation, to be standing there? Might have got away with it with, say, Billy.

2nd ruck lost - Alex Goode receives exit box kick but is able to offload to Nowell, who offloads to Hartley, who goes to ground and the ball is knocked on somewhere in that ruck

3rd ruck lost - Kruis receives the ball out wide when counter-attacking from a kick and decides to straighten; Sean O'Brien gets over it and Owens calls England advantage over. However, there were forwards there; Cole, Hartley and Marler were all in attendance. But Cole slid straight off O'Brien and Hartley and Marler couldn't wrestle him once set. Maybe slightly slow to get there?

4th ruck lost - Pretty much centre of park, Billy steals a few yards off of Henshaw in the tackle and maybe gets a little too isolated; Best is over it, Cole slides off again, Haskell can't stop Best ripping the ball, my notes say Attwood was there too, I can't recall what part he took but it can't have been useful.

5th ruck lost - Burrell get eaten alive by Sexton and Henshaw after his dummy isn't brought following the half-backs shovelling on the ball after the maul nearly goes into touch; if Burrell had also shovelled it on there was an overlap on. Instead he got banjaxed and penalised for holding on.

6th ruck lost - This comes a few phases after the big break Ford made up the middle (which notably got plenty of support). Robshaw carried in, Attwood's right there but failed to do anything to the jackal, Ben Youngs is the next man in, Kruis hits hard but is too late... we're about 10 out from the 22, 20 in from the touchline, third phase of possession after a break, there's no excuse for the forwards not to be there.

7th ruck lost - Sexton kicks in behind Watson, Watson and Goode both go for it and collide, Zebo wrestles Watson off feet too easily for my liking, England are having to flood back and Ireland drive over and pick it up. When Goode, Youngs, Ford and Joseph are your guys in the ruck, you're screwed. This one led to Henshaw's try btw, so yay!

8th ruck lost - Haskell takes on second phase after Alex Goode's kick return. Robshaw, Kruis and Marler were waiting but fail to shift Martin Moore's gigantic posterior. Support was there, although Robshaw has to check and turn in approach to ruck, while Marler seems to fanny around somewhat.


Now, admittedly, Ireland isn't the best example, as England didn't really do much in the way of expansive attack, and what we did got let down by Nowell getting bundled into touch, Watson developing bad colour-blindness when offloading, and Twelvetrees' passing, but we are perfectly capable of turning over the ball in any situation!

There's the odd occasion I think where I look at England getting turned over and think its mainly due to a lack of support in the area (Ford vs France might be another), but most of the ones I'm seeing, the support is there and the support is inadequate. So far the closest thing I've seen to what you say is Dylan Hartley charging off from the back of a maul against Wales... but assuming it comes up only once a match or so, I think that's still overall a win. And a more physical, industrious backline would help in this situation nearly as much as more pace in the back row.

edit: I'd also point out that Youngs and Ford rarely break out wide, but instead tend to go through fringe defences, which lessens the stress on their supporting runners.

i need to go back, but i remember England were very quick to go to ground, rather than trying to stay on their feet and keep going forward till support re-adjusts they seemed to throw themselves down to try and facilitate a 2 man clear - perhaps fear of the choke.

I just think Ireland played a better contact game that day, low hit and 2nd man over the top and England failed to adjust.

On Ford. I think the kicking was 6 of one half dozen of the other - he has a habit of kicking too long, I don't have a massive issue with Ford, but my point is more you can't have it both ways he can't be the Savior of English Rugby and then absolved of all responsibility when things go wrong, and likewise with Farrell. They take on a role of responsibility and while lots of other factors impact they are ultimately leaders within the team and they have to deliver.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Fuk me?!?!?!

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/595309/Stuart-Lancaster-England-World-Cup

 

[ratsapprentice]

Hack needs cash.

 

[Crapspray]

Pretty much; the extract is hardly an intricate, critical analysis of methods.

Plus, it's World Cup time. Expect a lot of merchandise to float around Rugby Union for the next three months.

And, being brutally honest, Lancaster-branded items may be worth a lot less after the World Cup.

 

[Peat]

i need to go back, but i remember England were very quick to go to ground, rather than trying to stay on their feet and keep going forward till support re-adjusts they seemed to throw themselves down to try and facilitate a 2 man clear - perhaps fear of the choke.

I just think Ireland played a better contact game that day, low hit and 2nd man over the top and England failed to adjust.

Maybe. We were mostly going to ground quick enough its true. I do feel like there was a lot of bad rucking in that game and I'd count that as failure of execution rather than failure to adjust. Might be being pernickety there.

On Ford. I think the kicking was 6 of one half dozen of the other - he has a habit of kicking too long, I don't have a massive issue with Ford, but my point is more you can't have it both ways he can't be the Savior of English Rugby and then absolved of all responsibility when things go wrong, and likewise with Farrell. They take on a role of responsibility and while lots of other factors impact they are ultimately leaders within the team and they have to deliver.

Fair point but there's definitely a statute of limitations here. There's nothing Ford can do about Hartley throwing two consecutive underthrows to waste one of England's best platforms of the match.

What would you like Ford to do in those circs? What do you want him to deliver on?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I remember the rucking being extremely slow during the 6N - players were clearly delaying their entrance to the breakdown... you could almost see them mentally counting out a "one-potato-two-potato".

 

[yaboyjj]

36, Eastmond, Mullen, Kvesic, Dickson, Yarde likely to be cut
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...ond-fighting-for-their-place-for-England.html

Burrell, Burgess, Ashton, Watson still likely to remain
let's hope Slade actually sees some ball in the warm up and makes a case for inclusion as starting 12 (it's effectively Burgess v Slade). I wonder if Burgess will have a better time of it than the last Saxon game- he had Slade and Daly either side of him then.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Harsh on Yarde, we're not inundated with left wingers (Roko, Nowell, Watson and Ashton all play on the right usually, don't they?) and he's been playing well the last few months.
Would be a shame to see Mullan dropped instead of Corbisiero, who has been muck all season.
The others are no surprise, imo.

 

[Peat]

Kvesic is going to end up the Anthony Allen of the back row, I can feel it.

Mullan was never going ahead of Corbs; the 5th prop must be able to play both sides and Mullan can't. Still couldn't care less about Mullan's domestic form.

If they're cutting nine, three more to go, no?