[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[SelimNiai]

What do you guys think are Itoje's chances of actually starting? It is something I'd love to see but I'm not sure it's gonna happen.

Won't make the final squad. He's going to be a future England player most likely, he's in to introduce him to the process and to the coaches

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm obviously not wanting him too fall down the stairs. I nice push from Hawkins would be more poetic.....

 

[Maverick1987]

Won't make the final squad. He's going to be a future England player most likely, he's in to introduce him to the process and to the coaches

I think he will make the final squad . As far as I'm concerned this kid only needs one chance and he will prove he's head and shoulders above anyone else we have .

 

[Patchey]

I think he will make the final squad . As far as I'm concerned this kid only needs one chance and he will prove he's head and shoulders above anyone else we have .

Yeah. I suspect a few weeks in the training squad and he'll be burnt into Lancaster's mind.

 

[Maverick1987]

Yeah. I suspect a few weeks in the training squad and he'll be burnt into Lancaster's mind.

If he settles in to the squad quickly there's no reason he won't have a chance in the WC warm ups . If he does well in those he will be in the full squad I think . Unless a certain Mr. Burgess steals his space .....

 

[Every Time Ref]

Went out the window when they selected this squad? I share your concern but out of the guys realistically in contention... Haskell? Wood and Clark certainly aren't major ball carriers. Itoje maybe? Burgess probably isn't ready, Ewers isn't there...

I'd like to take this opportunity to start the Mako for One platform, because we won't be selecting ball carriers anywhere else!

I agree the ball carriers is a major deficiency and has been for some time, but I wouldn't drop Marler, his scrummaging and defence has been crucial to England over the last year. I'd try adn build ball carriers into the rest of the pack somehow - firstly, drop Hartley whose throwing has deteriorated and who has never been international class at anything else for Youngs, who seems to throw perfectly well at Leicester from what I've seen and is much much better than Hartley at pretty much everything else. And far less likely to get himself sinbinned in the 70th minute of a tight World Cup semi-final.

Second row, Attwood on his best form would challenge Lawes - and offers probably slightly more carrying I'd say, compared to Lawes' vicious tackling and aggression around the park. But he hasn't been on his best form, so Lawes-Launch seems nailed on - neither big physical carriers, although Launch has that wider-channels athletic carrying and hands going for him.

Back row, Burgess is almost certainly not ready ... he's also not a massive ball carrier in the smashing-defenders-off-the-park sense, for Bath he's been making large numbers of carries but he hasn't made memorable, barnstorming runs where he smashes through three defenders and makes 10-15 metres really. Doesn't matter, both types are important, just an observation really. Anyway, he isn't ready. For me Vunipola's improvement in the non-carrying areas of his game (defence, workrate, breakdown work) since Morgan's injury mean even with Morgan at (hypothetical) full fitness he's my nailed-on eight. Been really impressed with him this year, England's most improved I'd say. Robshaw is captain and a superb player in what he does so nailed-on. But we need another carrier in that back row - Ewers is everyone's favourite option, with good reason, but not in the squad. Haskell hasn't carried well for England except for one game (against Wales). Itoje? Can jump as well which I like, although not a massive carrier, maybe with Youngs in there he doesn't need to be. Kvesic jumps for Glaws doesn't he? WIll never happen, but the old Robshaw at 6 and Kvesic at 7 combo is probably my favourite if we're ignoring what Lancaster will and won't consider.

To summarise, if picked tomorrow my WC 1st choice pack would be:

Marler - Youngs - Cole
Launchbury - Lawes
Itoje - Vunipola - Robshaw (or Robshaw - Vunipola - Kvesic)

 

[Peat]

It should be noted that I think Marler's defence is overtalked - everyone goes on about his big work rate, it's no bigger than any of his competitors and I've posted up the ESPN stats in the past to prove it - and I don't think our scrum's been anything much to write home about. I don't think he's good enough to play a leading role in a world class England side and never will be.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

I agree the ball carriers is a major deficiency and has been for some time, but I wouldn't drop Marler, his scrummaging and defence has been crucial to England over the last year. I'd try adn build ball carriers into the rest of the pack somehow - firstly, drop Hartley whose throwing has deteriorated and who has never been international class at anything else for Youngs, who seems to throw perfectly well at Leicester from what I've seen and is much much better than Hartley at pretty much everything else. And far less likely to get himself sinbinned in the 70th minute of a tight World Cup semi-final.

Youngs actually had the highest thowing percentage rate last year, something around 92% IIRC.

Second row, Attwood on his best form would challenge Lawes - and offers probably slightly more carrying I'd say, compared to Lawes' vicious tackling and aggression around the park. But he hasn't been on his best form, so Lawes-Launch seems nailed on - neither big physical carriers, although Launch has that wider-channels athletic carrying and hands going for him.

I personally feel like the work Lawes and Launchbury put ni between them is unmatched as a second row pairing in world rugby. Also Attwood wained off a little in the 6 Nations when starting every game.

Back row, Burgess is almost certainly not ready ... he's also not a massive ball carrier in the smashing-defenders-off-the-park sense, for Bath he's been making large numbers of carries but he hasn't made memorable, barnstorming runs where he smashes through three defenders and makes 10-15 metres really. Doesn't matter, both types are important, just an observation really. Anyway, he isn't ready.

Burgess scored a nice try the other week breaking two tackles, I think that 5/10 metre out carry is where people will really struggle with him, but I would say he is a massive ball carrier from what I observed at league, but obviously this isn't league.

For me Vunipola's improvement in the non-carrying areas of his game (defence, workrate, breakdown work) since Morgan's injury mean even with Morgan at (hypothetical) full fitness he's my nailed-on eight. Been really impressed with him this year, England's most improved I'd say.

Definitely England's most improved, had a storming 6 Nations. I always backed Morgan previously but it's hard to argue with Billy V now. Would Thomas the Tank have pushed him? Judging by Premireship form he absolutely would have.

Robshaw is captain and a superb player in what he does so nailed-on. But we need another carrier in that back row - Ewers is everyone's favourite option, with good reason, but not in the squad. Haskell hasn't carried well for England except for one game (against Wales). Itoje? Can jump as well which I like, although not a massive carrier, maybe with Youngs in there he doesn't need to be. Kvesic jumps for Glaws doesn't he? WIll never happen, but the old Robshaw at 6 and Kvesic at 7 combo is probably my favourite if we're ignoring what Lancaster will and won't consider.

I'd love to see Itoje out there for reasons you stated, but I feel Lancaster will go with Haskell.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Youngs actually had the highest thowing percentage rate last year, something around 92% IIRC.

Did he indeed? Just goes to show, maybe there's more to it than "Youngs is a weak thrower" (as there usually is with lineouts). I'd be interested to see how his Leicester percentage compares with his England percentage; and the same for Hartley.

Burgess scored a nice try the other week breaking two tackles, I think that 5/10 metre out carry is where people will really struggle with him, but I would say he is a massive ball carrier from what I observed at league, but obviously this isn't league.

He's, if not massive, certainly big in terms of number of carries, and he takes out multiple defenders and breaks the gainline on those carries. And yes, certainly very hard to stop from short range - he's scored a couple of tries that way or Bath, and I bet will score many more in future. He doesn't do what he did in league though, which is smash people off completely. Different style of running I guess, with less space to build up momentum in before hitting the tackler.

I'd love to see Itoje out there for reasons you stated, but I feel Lancaster will go with Haskell.

I fear you're right

It should be noted that I think Marler's defence is overtalked - everyone goes on about his big work rate, it's no bigger than any of his competitors and I've posted up the ESPN stats in the past to prove it - and I don't think our scrum's been anything much to write home about. I don't think he's good enough to play a leading role in a world class England side and never will be.

I'm not a big stats man, but would be interested to see them if you have them to hand? My impression is he makes plenty of tackles per game, doesn't often get caught out of position defensively and the tackles he makes are solid, stop on or behind the gainline tackles. I can't claim to be a scrummaging expert, but he has always held his own from what I can recall too. Although Mako seems to have improved in this area over the last year, so maybe he's ready. I wouldn't in any way object to seeing Mako's name on the teamsheet. He's no Ashton

 

[TRF_Olyy]

To echo everyone else and their dog: if itoje can prove himself in the warmups (and i've no doubt he will) then I'd have him at 6 over Wood and the brand.

Flip a coin over Mako and Marler, for me.
Mako has really impressed me with his scrummaging since coming back from injury - was never massively keen on him before but I'm a big fan now. Hopefully Marler comes back as strong as he was pre-injury. I'd probably start Mako just because he's played more recently, and is the better carrier.

I'm glad to see Mullan in the 50man squad, if Rowntree picks on form not reputation then he should definitely be ahead of Corbs.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I know i might be biased but i would have a 100% Slater ahead of a 100% Attwood.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I'm glad to see Mullan in the 50man squad, if Rowntree picks on form not reputation then he should definitely be ahead of Corbs.

One man's "reputation" is another man's "big game experience" though. If we were talking 6 nations I'd agree with you, but for a World Cup I'll take the experienced international and key cog in a winning Lions tour any day, even if his form's a bit off.

I know i might be biased but i would have a 100% Slater ahead of a 100% Attwood.

I'm also biased and I'd take Attwood! Any neutrals care to weigh in ... ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I suppose so, but Corbs' form has been absolure crap compared to Mullan who has been on fire.
If Corbs doesn't perform in the Warm Ups then I wouldn't think twice about dropping him.

I'd say 100% vs 100% I'd take Attwood every time, but Slaters been out for ages and Attwood has looked off since midway through the 6N so it's hard to judge atm.

 

[chippieolamus]

One man's "reputation" is another man's "big game experience" though. If we were talking 6 nations I'd agree with you, but for a World Cup I'll take the experienced international and key cog in a winning Lions tour any day, even if his form's a bit off.



I'm also biased and I'd take Attwood! Any neutrals care to weigh in ... ?

I prefer Attwood. Also has international experience.

 

[Tony Manx]

I would not have Corbs in the squad based on form and two year injury history!

 

[yaboyjj]

I suppose so, but Corbs' form has been absolure crap compared to Mullan who has been on fire.
If Corbs doesn't perform in the Warm Ups then I wouldn't think twice about dropping him.

I'd say 100% vs 100% I'd take Attwood every time, but Slaters been out for ages and Attwood has looked off since midway through the 6N so it's hard to judge atm.

I think 'on fire' is a little exaggerated with regards to Mullan- decent player, and usually holds his own in the scrum (I think Cole gave him a going over in the scrum iirc), but I'd take even an 80% Corbs over him.
I think Attwood at his best is a very good player- very good impact sub

 

[Maverick1987]

The more I think about it the more gutted I am that Dave Ewers didn't get in the squad . Anyone else think the same ? To be fair though he's young and will eventually get in .....

Maybe when Lancaster's been sacked ...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yup, I'm gutted about it too.
He's exactly the type of 6 I like, and I think he'd work well in our pack - however, rightly or wrongly, the coaches really really want a lineout option at 6. I suppose it makes sense as Binny isn't one, but can we not make do with just the locks at Robshaw?

I remember I looked up the Chiefs' lineout stats a month or two ago and Ewers hadn't taken one lineout ball all season, so it's not even like he's just not a main jumper, he's just completely unused.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's simply not true, I've watched him take a handful this season.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Yup, I'm gutted about it too.
He's exactly the type of 6 I like, and I think he'd work well in our pack - however, rightly or wrongly, the coaches really really want a lineout option at 6. I suppose it makes sense as Binny isn't one, but can we not make do with just the locks at Robshaw?

I remember I looked up the Chiefs' lineout stats a month or two ago and Ewers hadn't taken one lineout ball all season, so it's not even like he's just not a main jumper, he's just completely unused.

I do think that the advantage of having one extra "real" lineout option is outweighed by having a stronger backrow overall.