[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[Maverick1987]

He had that excellent game vs Saints but since then hasn't done much since.
Very promising, and will likely be a good player - don't want him to go to Wales but he wouldn't make our RWC squad and would theirs (would be hard pressed to make the training squad, if he declared, considering how well Brookes and Thomas are coming along).

Is his ceiling as high as people like Brookes or Sinkler do you think ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Really hard to say at that age.
His scrummaging is better than Brookes and Thomas' at the same age, but his work in the loose is far behind.
I think Brookes/Thomas are as good in the scrum, if not better (at least more consistent) - if they keep improving then we won't miss Francis (especially as Cole and Wilson have at least another RWC in them, barring injury).

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Is his ceiling as high as people like Brookes or Sinkler do you think ?

At the moment from what I've seen he is the opposite of them in that he is a good scrummager but doesn't do so much around the park (if someone has watched him more please interject).

I guess the thing with Francois is that England have loads of good right heads, where as Wales don't so he could have a small part in England but a massive part in Wales?

 

[Maverick1987]

At the moment from what I've seen he is the opposite of them in that he is a good scrummager but doesn't do so much around the park (if someone has watched him more please interject).

I guess the thing with Francois is that England have loads of good right heads, where as Wales don't so he could have a small part in England but a massive part in Wales?

Yeh it's a shame though because what he should be thinking is if I work hard I can be England's premier tight head come the World Cup in Japan but maybe what he's thinking is more short term imo . Stuart Lancaster should give him a call just to say he's on the right track and to encourage him to stay and fight . Btw I'm not endorsing him being picked once for the Saxons just so he can't play for Wales that might be a good thing for England but certainly would be unfair on Francis

 

[Peat]

Yeh it's a shame though because what he should be thinking is if I work hard I can be England's premier tight head come the World Cup in Japan but maybe what he's thinking is more short term imo . Stuart Lancaster should give him a call just to say he's on the right track and to encourage him to stay and fight . Btw I'm not endorsing him being picked once for the Saxons just so he can't play for Wales that might be a good thing for England but certainly would be unfair on Francis

What he's thinking, based on his most recent interview, is "Wales want me and it would be an honour to play for them and I owe them a bit of loyalty for showing that interest; if England wanted me, they should have said so" and tbh, that seems eminently fair to me. Maybe he's dressing it up for the press, but maybe not; makes sense to me.

 

[Raggs]

Really hard to say at that age.
His scrummaging is better than Brookes and Thomas' at the same age, but his work in the loose is far behind.
I think Brookes/Thomas are as good in the scrum, if not better (at least more consistent) - if they keep improving then we won't miss Francis (especially as Cole and Wilson have at least another RWC in them, barring injury).

There's less than a year and a half between them all I believe. Brookes and Thomas I reckon are better scrummagers, Brookes is a better carrier, and Thomas is Cole's spiritual successor (with a bit better carrying, and better hands). Francis is 23, Thomas is 23, Brookes is 24. Sinckler is 22, Jake Cooper-Woolley is 25. Dan Cole has just turned 28, and given props normally make it a fair way into their 30s, you'd expect him to be around in 2019.

I just don't see any more from Francis than I do from basically anyone else in that list. Certainly not enough to think it's imperative to cap him to keep him away from the Welsh. His scrummaging is good, but that's about it, and we have that in other players already. And with some fantastic u20s/ex u20s prospects, I don't see us suddenly regretting not getting him capped.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Would also chuck Fraser Balmain's name in there @ 23. who is keeping Rizzo out of the squad.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

The poll for preferred England centre partnership so far is this so far is this:

Jonathan Joseph & Luther Burrell - 1 (2%)

Jonathan Joseph & Kyle Eastmond - 7 (16%)

Jonathan Joseph & Henry Slade - 16 (37%)

Jonathan Joseph & Owen Farrell - 5 (11%)

Jonathan Joseph & Brad Barritt - 13 (30%)

Elliot Daly & Owen Farrell - 0 (0%)

Elliot Daly & Henry Slade - 0 (0%)

Other - 1 (2%)

If you haven't voted yet you can do so here: http://fourballsblog.blogspot.co.uk...howComment=1432031165360#c3202652556465879836

 

[LiRFCMatt]

What do you guys make of that?

This is what I had to say on the two leading candidates:

Jonathan Joseph & Henry Slade

This is a great mix of attacking flair, a good kicking game, and solid defence. What they may lack in experience, JJ and Slade make up for in ability and excitement. It is a combination that many have been hoping to see, as Slade's boot can help Ford out and ease the pressure on him, and his distribution can give Joseph the space to be fully effective. It is certainly one of our favourite combinations, but Lancaster will probably look for a more experienced head at 12 and sacrifice some of the attacking promise in favour of a more defensive and accomplished player, which is why he could well go four our next partnership...

Rating: 9/10



Jonathan Joseph & Brad Barritt

If the World Cup final came along tomorrow, this is the combination to play. JJ is in great form and provides scintillating offence, whilst Barritt gives everything he can to ensure that nobody is breaking his line. He can help Ford out with his defence if necessary and has shown that even against the mighty All Blacks that he has what it takes. Again, it isn't particularly exciting, at least not as exciting as some of the earlier pairings, but these two guys complement each other very well, and would be very hard to stop playing their natural game. Roberts and Davies found it tough against Burrell and Joseph, and wouldn't stand a chance breaking through the South African born centre. It might not be the partnership that people want to see, but it might just be a winning partnership.

Rating: 9/10

 

[ratsapprentice]

Is this your blog's own forum....?

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Is this your blog's own forum....?

If only... haha, it's just my opinion taken from there and put into the forum here, I just want to talk rugby mate don't see a problem.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Personally i don't see how a combination that includes a player yet to feature in International rugby can be a 9/10.

Also what standards are you going by?

IF that is considered a 9/10 then would Conrad smith and Nonu etc be a 10/10? If so would you rate Slade and joesph as a potential combo only 1 rank behind Smith and Nonu.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Personally i don't see how a combination that includes a player yet to feature in International rugby can be a 9/10.

Also what standards are you going by?

IF that is considered a 9/10 then would Conrad smith and Nonu etc be a 10/10? If so would you rate Slade and joesph as a potential combo only 1 rank behind Smith and Nonu.

All ratings were based on possible England partnerships, irrespective of other nations, so an Italian combination could see a 9/10 even though on a world scale they would not. It was more about the theory of how they will play together, the extra kicking option provided by Slade, the quick, attacking nature of both his and JJ's game, baring in mind both have scored 7 tries in the Premiership this year. It has everything required to work, bar experience. I also mention that Farrell brings the solid defence, extra kicking and experience to deal with the game, and give Fordy some tips, but I don't see him and Joseph combining very well, Slade would give Joseph more room to play with.

I think it's an interesting debate to have, which is why I opened it up to this forum. It's virtually guaranteed Lancaster won't go with Burrell again, so we need to explore our options.

 

[Maverick1987]

Slade and JJ is my preferred choice but wouldn't be upset if it was Barritt/JJ or Eastmond/JJ basically as long as Joseph plays 13 and Faz doesn't play at all I'm happy

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Slade and JJ is my preferred choice but wouldn't be upset if it was Barritt/JJ or Eastmond/JJ basically as long as Joseph plays 13 and Faz doesn't play at all I'm happy

JJ & Eastmond works so well at club level that it would be very interesting to see at international level, especially now Ford has cemented that 10 shirt, it could really help all three feel even more comfortable on the international stage. I agree I don't like seeing Farrell in there, but Lancaster could well pick him, and I would be able to see his reasoning behind it.

 

[Patchey]

Slade at 12, I think, is the best option. One might worry about his experience but he's looked very mature in the Premiership this year.

I just hope to god Burgess isn't picked as a 12 in the squad.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Slade at 12, I think, is the best option. One might worry about his experience but he's looked very mature in the Premiership this year.

I just hope to god Burgess isn't picked as a 12 in the squad.

Surely he can't be... I think he'll be in the back row, and Ewers will miss out unfortunately. Clark will make it in as well I think.

 

[MrTea_32]

Either Eastmond or Slade and I'll be happy

 

[yaboyjj]

Article on what Ewers would bring to England: http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries...-what-dave-ewers-would-bring-to-england-45400

And a probable squad posted in the rugby paper:

Lancaster's probable 51-man long-squad

Injured but included: Henry Thomas, Joe Marler, Ben Morgan, Geoff Parling, Tom Croft, Ben Foden, Joe Simpson.

Dubious about Croft and Foden- they're out till after WC IIRC

Props

Looseheads: M Vunipola, Corbisiero, Mullan;

Tightheads: Cole, Wilson, Brookes.

Hookers: Hartley, T Youngs, Webber, George.

Locks: Lawes, Launchbury, Slater, Kruis, Attwood, Kitchener.

Back Row

Blindsides: Wood, Haskell, Itoje, Burgess.

Opensides: Robshaw, Kvesic.

No.8: B Vunipola, Waldrom, Easter.

Scrum-halves: B Youngs, Wigglesworth, Care.

Fly-halves: Ford, Farrell, Cipriani.

Inside-centres: Barritt, Eastmond, Twelvetrees.

Outside-centres: Joseph, Burrell, Slade.

Wings: Nowell, Watson, May, Yarde, Wade, Ashton.

Full-backs: Brown, Goode, Pennell.

Nick Cain changes

Loosehead: Auterac for Mullan.

Hooker: Batty for Webber.

Blindside: Ewers for Burgess.

Openside: Clifford (added).

Centre: Daly for Twelvetrees.

Not bad tbf, I would swap out Webber for LCD- but I wouldn't be adverse to either of Clifford or Beaumont having a look in either (I know it's a big squad, and back row is already cramped). Clifford actually kinda reminds me of Heaslip (in looks and style of play) and is the kind of player England need at 6- lineout option, link man and quick to breakdowns (better fit than Burgess at any rate) although he would be a development player rather than challenging for the 31 man squad. In Itoje, Slater and Beaumont you have three players who can genuinely be called locks and blindside flankers.

 

[Maverick1987]

Who would you put in as our 4 blindsides for this training squad then ?

Mine would be Haskell, Burgess, Itoje and Ewers I think . Harsh on Tom Wood but he doesn't bring enough to the game for me and has hardly been outstanding for Saints either ..