[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[goodNumber10]

I think Burgess progress since moving to 6 has been frighteningly rapid.

Not saying he's IQ yet but, he's certainly a guy who should be in the Saxons squad.

Going back to Itoje, sure anyone rise think he could make a good number 8?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Kesic has a three week ban.

Le sigh.

 

[chippieolamus]

I think Burgess progress since moving to 6 has been frighteningly rapid.

Not saying he's IQ yet but, he's certainly a guy who should be in the Saxons squad.

Going back to Itoje, sure anyone rise think he could make a good number 8?

He played there a bit when Billy went off vs Saints. Question is, why would you want him at 8? We already have 2 (possibly 3 in the future with Hughes) world class 8s, but no world class 6s.

 

[MrTea_32]

He played there a bit when Billy went off vs Saints. Question is, why would you want him at 8? We already have 2 (possibly 3 in the future with Hughes) world class 8s, but no world class 6s.

I agree 8 is a position we will be spoilt for choice when hughes is available

 

[Every Time Ref]

Would be worth giving him experience at eight, a solid second* position is always handy, but I'm much more excited about him as a blindside. Him and Ewers fighting it out for years to come could be really good for English sport

*third in this case I know, but I don't see him being an international lock

 

[chippieolamus]

Would be worth giving him experience at eight, a solid second* position is always handy, but I'm much more excited about him as a blindside. Him and Ewers fighting it out for years to come could be really good for English sport.

Plus Burgess if he continues his form.

 

[yaboyjj]

grrr Simpson out for 6-8 weeks and will miss the Saxons game... thanks Goneva.
I hope we won't be stuck with Dickson or Care for that game- Robson, Harrison or Spencer pls.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Think if Leicester didn't make the Final Harrison would be a good shot as a bench player very quick and aggressive of the breakdown.

 

[yaboyjj]

Think if Leicester didn't make the Final Harrison would be a good shot as a bench player very quick and aggressive of the breakdown.

It's a shame with those three scrummies, I could make a good case that they should be getting a lot more game time at their clubs- Spencer looked the goods for Sarries in the LV cub, instead they continue to persist with Niel De Kock, and Spencer doesn't even get a look in off the bench

Speaking of which, I think Sarries could do with a bit of dead heading over the summer- I can think of a number of players who are either over the hill or just not up to standard, and who seem to get played on past reputation alone now over academy products. Brown, Burger (might be controversial), Bosch, De Kock and Johnston spring to mind for me (I bet they make up a fair bit of the salary cap too- not that Sarries actually care much about that)

 

[goodNumber10]

He played there a bit when Billy went off vs Saints. Question is, why would you want him at 8? We already have 2 (possibly 3 in the future with Hughes) world class 8s, but no world class 6s.

Why wouldn't you?

Surely you want the very best player at 8 playing 8, so if he is the best option stick him there... don't hold him back because you already have an 8.

 

[chippieolamus]

It's a shame with those three scrummies, I could make a good case that they should be getting a lot more game time at their clubs- Spencer looked the goods for Sarries in the LV cub, instead they continue to persist with Niel De Kock, and Spencer doesn't even get a look in off the bench

Speaking of which, I think Sarries could do with a bit of dead heading over the summer- I can think of a number of players who are either over the hill or just not up to standard, and who seem to get played on past reputation alone now over academy products. Brown, Burger (might be controversial), Bosch, De Kock and Johnston spring to mind for me (I bet they make up a fair bit of the salary cap too- not that Sarries actually care much about that)

Kinda true, we're just a few players away from being able to compete with Toulon and Clermont. We've got a couple new back rowers for next season, including Vunisa who should take some of the ball carrying load off Billy (we really struggle without his carrying, e.g. Saints 2nd half and Exeter) and hopefully Itoje will take Brown's place at 6. Agree with ll the players except Bosch, who seems to get quite a bit of unjustified hate on here. He's a good player apart from his occasional tendency to squander overlaps.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Why wouldn't you?

Surely you want the very best player at 8 playing 8, so if he is the best option stick him there... don't hold him back because you already have an 8.

Sort of, yes. But seeming as we're lacking a definite six it would seem strange to move one of the great prospects to eight, where we're amply covered, on the off chance he might be better than the eights we already have.

 

[goodNumber10]

Sort of, yes. But seeming as we're lacking a definite six it would seem strange to move one of the great prospects to eight, where we're amply covered, on the off chance he might be better than the eights we already have.

That's not what i suggested/advocated though, i just asked if people thought he'd make a good 8.

I think he'd be an immense 8, and possibly better than all our options at the moment.

 

[TheSaffycen]

When he was younger he said his preferred position was 8, but I guess we wanted him at lock so he's grown there. But no I don't think he would thrive as a main ball carrier. Against Clermont he made that one massive break and he bumped Ewers but if Vunipola/Wray isn't there he couldn't just run the show. He makes the wide breaks better, his speed is good and he can carry around rucks. At 8 long term we have Billy and Clifford.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

That's not what i suggested/advocated though, i just asked if people thought he'd make a good 8.

I think he'd be an immense 8, and possibly better than all our options at the moment.

My mistake then, apologies. Does Itoje have the build for an 8 though? He seems quite lanky when compared to Morgan, Vunipola, Waldrom, etc- though he is still very young, I suppose. I do think he'd be better used at six.

 

[Peat]

My mistake then, apologies. Does Itoje have the build for an 8 though? He seems quite lanky when compared to Morgan, Vunipola, Waldrom, etc- though he is still very young, I suppose. I do think he'd be better used at six.

Compare him instead to Kieran Read. Mindyou, it might turn out he's better off replacing Lawes for us in the long run... interesting dilemmas, shame the World Cup has come so soon.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Plus Burgess if he continues his form.

Quite possibly. I'm trying hard not to jump aboard the Burgess train too early, although I sense it might be approaching my station.

When he was younger he said his preferred position was 8, but I guess we wanted him at lock so he's grown there. But no I don't think he would thrive as a main ball carrier. Against Clermont he made that one massive break and he bumped Ewers but if Vunipola/Wray isn't there he couldn't just run the show. He makes the wide breaks better, his speed is good and he can carry around rucks. At 8 long term we have Billy and Clifford.

This is my feeling too. He's no slouch in that department but I don't see him as the primary carrier. Imagine him as a secondary carrier, though, while still doing all his other work ... that I like

My mistake then, apologies. Does Itoje have the build for an 8 though? He seems quite lanky when compared to Morgan, Vunipola, Waldrom, etc- though he is still very young, I suppose. I do think he'd be better used at six.

He looks pretty powerful though. He certainly doesn't look like a wimp at the breakdown or in the tackle.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Compare him instead to Kieran Read. Mindyou, it might turn out he's better off replacing Lawes for us in the long run... interesting dilemmas, shame the World Cup has come so soon.

Read weighs 3kg less (according to really quick Wiki searches), point very much taken. Read is used differently to England no. 8s though, he's more of a wide channel link and wide carrier- very similar to where Itoje looks most effective- than the tight carries that Morgan and Vunipola are asked to do. I could see Itoje at eight with other strong carriers in the pack (Mako and Ewers, for a start) but that's not really how the current England setup is working or looking for.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Yeah if he was a NZer than he would be an 8 most probably, but it's not how we would use an 8. For me we have Vunipola, Morgan, Waldrom, Clifford, Easter, Ewers who all play as an typical English 8. Carrys very hard into traffic doesn't normally look to offload and the ball dies with him. Normally makes 12 carries a game and is expected to make over 50m on his game, read will carry wide and probably get 3 try assist a game.

 

[Peat]

Read weighs 3kg less (according to really quick Wiki searches), point very much taken. Read is used differently to England no. 8s though, he's more of a wide channel link and wide carrier- very similar to where Itoje looks most effective- than the tight carries that Morgan and Vunipola are asked to do. I could see Itoje at eight with other strong carriers in the pack (Mako and Ewers, for a start) but that's not really how the current England setup is working or looking for.

Yeah if he was a NZer than he would be an 8 most probably, but it's not how we would use an 8. For me we have Vunipola, Morgan, Waldrom, Clifford, Easter, Ewers who all play as an typical English 8. Carrys very hard into traffic doesn't normally look to offload and the ball dies with him. Normally makes 12 carries a game and is expected to make over 50m on his game, read will carry wide and probably get 3 try assist a game.

Well, given that the current England set-up isn't working...

Personally, I think you guys are slightly wide of the mark anyway. Morgan's strength notably lies in attacking a little wider out and Easter is a very good offloader (just doesn't always use it intelligently). Vunipola can do it as well, think of the try he set up for Burrell in the 2014 6N, it's just most of the time we can't dispense with what he brings closer in (that and he's frequently double-marked). Waldrom too likes to rampage wider out when he can and look for offloads (and also isn't an example of an English 8) and Clifford certainly is no mere traffic merchant. Yeah, sure, most of our 8s at the moment are very compact men who can do traffic well, but they are all comfortable wider out and in most cases are more dangerous there. The problem isn't that about our 8s suitability for that, it's about having a team that can free them up to play that role and then make good use of it.

Still, there do need to be guys who can beat the traffic somewhere in the team, and given most of the ones we have play at 8, it would seem slightly odd to move Itoje there. Itoje 8 Ewers 6 could work nicely I guess, but so would Itoje 6 Vunipola/Morgan 8.