[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[91jmay]

No he hasn't he has been very good, Saints scrum has faltered a little lately but was strong all year. Dips in form happen.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

No he hasn't he has been average as said.

What games have your scrum dominated the opposition with Corbs in it?

 

[Tony Manx]

No he hasn't he has been average as said.

What games have your scrum dominated the opposition with Corbs in it?

God even the dreaded Steven Jones in the ST today says Corbs has been underwhelming since his return but will be selected as he is class! i.e. on hope rather than form!!!!

 

[Peat]

God even the dreaded Steven Jones in the ST today says Corbs has been underwhelming since his return but will be selected as he is class! i.e. on hope rather than form!!!!

In fairness, if Stephen Jones says it, I usually assume the opposite has occurred.

Heard a few people say he's lost weight. Anyone know ought about that?

 

[j'nuh]

Kvesic and Robshaw would be the closest thing we've had to Neil Back and Richard Hill forever and, while that's a good thing, it should also be noted their greatness was in part formed of a very hard carrying tight five. I do not think our attempt to do such a thing would be good enough. I think we'd have more success with the sort of tight five that frees up the back row to do a lot of carrying, but that seems to go hand in glove with putting a lot of pressure on our hooker.

In any case - I don't expect Kvesic to be given an opportunity to play like an openside. He's a good enough all round flanker to deserve a shot but I remain convinced Robshaw is better at the breakdown than he is allowed to show in that team because contesting the breakdown comes second to making tackles for them.

And, well, I like Robshaw a lot but I don't think he is categorically shown himself to be the flanker we need to reach the next level. Ideally, his position would not be safe.

It's not like Kvesic is doing better at the breakdown because Robshaw is more tied up making tackles.

In fact, some stats for you. Only in games that they have started:

• Robshaw averages 8.8 tackles a game and has made 9.6% of his team's tackles. (9 starts, 79 tackles, compared to team's 823)
• Kvesic averages 11.3 tackles a game and has made 11.3% of his team's tackles. (15 starts, 169 tackles, compared to team's 1495)

So Kvesic is not only doing better on the floor, but he's also leading in making tackles.

Other England options for comparison. You could argue that Kvesic does even more in the tackle area than Ewers (who has been cited as making a shed load of tackles this season):

• Ewers averages 11.4 tackles a game and has made 10.4% of his team's tackles. (18 starts, 206 tackles, compared to team's 1976)
• Haskell averages 10.9 tackles a game and has made 10.9% of his team's tackles. (11 starts, 120 tackles, compared to team's 1100)
• Wood averages 8.7 tackles a game and has made 9.0% of his team's tackles. (9 starts, 78 tackles, compared to team's 863)

 

[goodNumber10]

 

[91jmay]

No he hasn't he has been average as said.

What games have your scrum dominated the opposition with Corbs in it?

We took Wasps to pieces a few games ago, even prior to red card. He came on against Bath and did well when we had a good game against their scrum. He hasn't played a huge amount still though, granted. Waller also been in good form so not like we've been desperate to rush him back.

 

[Peat]

It's not like Kvesic is doing better at the breakdown because Robshaw is more tied up making tackles.

You've completely missed my point. I'm talking about England's defensive system which puts very little priority on the jackal and therefore means players are rarely in the right place to execute. How anyone plays in their club system is somewhat immaterial to what they will do in England's system.

 

[Irishkid]

Think Steffon Armitage is going to get picked by Lancaster for the World Cup.

 

[Sorcerer]

Think Steffon Armitage is going to get picked by Lancaster for the World Cup.

I suppose it depends on whether he's going to screw the system in pursuit of the RWC. I would.

 

[Tony Manx]

I suppose it depends on whether he's going to screw the system in pursuit of the RWC. I would.

Armitage yes! Abendanon no!!!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Armitage yes! Abendanon no!!!

Both of them no!

They knew their lot when they went abroad.

 

[Sorcerer]

Both of them no!

They knew their lot when they went abroad.

How much do you want to win the RWC?

 

[j'nuh]

You've completely missed my point. I'm talking about England's defensive system which puts very little priority on the jackal and therefore means players are rarely in the right place to execute. How anyone plays in their club system is somewhat immaterial to what they will do in England's system.

I think you missed my point too. If Robshaw is being picked because "breakdown comes second to making tackles", then even by that standard, Kvesic may be a better choice. Kvesic's work rate on the floor doesn't detract from his tackling work rate. He's prolific in both because the guy has a freakish work rate in defence.

That being said, I don't agree with you when it comes to fetching with England. Cole and Launchbury have both been credited with their breakdown work in the past. If they can prove their worth in that respect, then the handiest breakdown operator currently in England would probably get a bit of praise for it too.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Some people don't realise that having Armitage in didn't mean we will win the World Cup.

 

[goodNumber10]

Some people don't realise that having Armitage in didn't mean we will win the World Cup.

i know, why chuck everything out the window on the slim chance he'll have an effect so profound we'll win the world cup.

People are absolutely deluded if they think Armitage is even in the same league as Pocock, McCaw/Todd or Louw, he will have sod all impact at international level against the big teams.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yep just look at his performances against big packs in Europe against Leicester @ Welford and wasps @ (H) he was completely outplayed.

People forget the knock on effects bringing him in would have on the premiership clubs.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it is a real shame Kvesic doesn't get more of a look in. I'd like Robshaw benched for some of the easier games because:
1) We need a secondary leader with at least some experience for if Robshaw is injured
2) We need to know who will replace him tactically if he is injured.

He is always in the England squad. I'm not in favour of kicking him out but I am not happy having absolutely no contingency tried out for our most used player. He could end up like Dan Cole and get overworked. I also don't like the idea of any player having their position cemented, even if they are captain.

 

[91jmay]

Armitage is good but not worth breaking system for - I've changed my mind on him. Abendanon isn't as good as Goode who massively outplayed him. Playing in the armchair and being allowed to attack as much as he is many FBs would be as good. Not saying he hasn't had an excellent year but how England play he isn't the man.

 

[Peat]

I think you missed my point too. If Robshaw is being picked because "breakdown comes second to making tackles", then even by that standard, Kvesic may be a better choice. Kvesic's work rate on the floor doesn't detract from his tackling work rate...

... in a different system. What Kvesic does for Glaws proves jack.

That being said, I don't agree with you when it comes to fetching with England. Cole and Launchbury have both been credited with their breakdown work in the past. If they can prove their worth in that respect, then the handiest breakdown operator currently in England would probably get a bit of praise for it too.

Sure, it happens sometimes. But then Robshaw has had some superb games at the breakdown. He's had the ref compliment his work while the game's still being played for crying out loud. But it doesn't happen consistently, just like Cole and Launchbury don't do it consistently either. Why?

If anyone's got a better answer than 'The System', lets hear it. But there is a definite tendency in our defensive system to eschew players acting behind the defensive line in favour of everyone up in their faces and that doesn't suit jackals too much as a rule.