[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[chippieolamus]

So his statement about Manu having much less experience is false then which is what I was showing?

Oops sorry, I thought you were indicating that he was too inexperienced. My mistake.

 

[Peat]

What are Australia evidence of? Not exactly a successful side are they.

Itoje has massive talent but I'd warn against pencilling someone who has made so few appearances into international rugby. I would invite him to camp though at least.

More successful than us.

edit: To expand, Australia with Pocock in the team have a better than 1 in 3 winning rate against NZ & SA. That may not sound great but everyone this side of the equator can only dream of that. And that's been done with a very shaky, at times virtually non-existent, scrum. And while there's lot of factors involved, Australia with Pocock are very good at the breakdown.

Tuilagi had much less experience going into the 2011 RWC


I don't think Lancaster will use him in his squad, to be honest. His mancrush on Clarke runs too deep to have Itoje leap frog him.

It doesn't run so deep as actually playing him though, even when people actually want him on the side based on form.

 

[91jmay]

I wouldn't swap England's position for Australia's as of now, would you? Also finding a Pocock is pretty difficult as evidenced by fact Aus have struggled to replace him. I would argue it is easier to build a solid scrum than find a generational talent like Pocock and also a safer bet as one injury can really almost derail a team where as a strong scrum needs depth so so can generally ride an injury or two.

 

[Peat]

I wouldn't swap England's position for Australia's as of now, would you? Also finding a Pocock is pretty difficult as evidenced by fact Aus have struggled to replace him. I would argue it is easier to build a solid scrum than find a generational talent like Pocock and also a safer bet as one injury can really almost derail a team where as a strong scrum needs depth so so can generally ride an injury or two.

Not the point is it?

The point is solely about balancing set-piece vs breakdown - Australia with Pocock are evidence that a team with a weak scrum can still survive and to a point, thrive. That point should be indisputable although if anyone wants to have a go about that point all in itself in isolation, cool.


What you do with this fact is entirely something else that doesn't really interest me as a conversation as the only logical exercise when building a team is to be as strong as possible in all areas and the compromises forced by selecting from a set group of players are too specific to that group of players to rely overmuch on theoreticals about what's more important.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I wonder what Kvesic progression would've been like if he had gotten the same game time @ 7 as Robshaw has.

 

[91jmay]

Not the point is it?

The point is solely about balancing set-piece vs breakdown - Australia with Pocock are evidence that a team with a weak scrum can still survive and to a point, thrive. That point should be indisputable although if anyone wants to have a go about that point all in itself in isolation, cool.


What you do with this fact is entirely something else that doesn't really interest me as a conversation as the only logical exercise when building a team is to be as strong as possible in all areas and the compromises forced by selecting from a set group of players are too specific to that group of players to rely overmuch on theoreticals about what's more important.

Fair enough, I was never disputing the bold just debating the theoreticals.

Kvesic was so poor last year though, couldn't justify picking him. Not sure he'd have picked himself from his interview quotes.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd disagree he was poor - he was certainly not playing at the level he was at Worcester, or was this year, but he was playing well enough.
That said, he was playing well enough for a Saxons call up....which he got.

He made the Argentina tour off of the back of his Wuss form, which was well deserved (even though it was a pretty mish-mash tour, what with the Lions and some players rested).


The thing with Kvesic is that he's a true out and out 7.
Lancaster has shown that he doesn't necessarily want that in his side, and with Wood and Haskell both able to fill in there, he's already got three players in his squad who he's happy to put at 7.
This is why I think he's gone for Clarke over Kvesic so much.
Lose Robshaw? Wood goes to first choice 7, Haskell to first choice 6 and Clarke to backup 6.
Lose Haskell? Clarke goes to 2nd choice 6.

It's not how I'd play it, but from Lancaster's point of view I can get where he's coming from - especially as he seems to view Robshaw as a 7 and nothing else.

 

[TheSaffycen]

He doesn't view anyone as a 7 he just seems to have a left and right flanker. Two 6.5s who tackle a lot and hit rucks, which doesn't explain Kvesic's absence as he is probably our best tackler with Fraser (When will you be fit).

 

[91jmay]

I disagree Kvesic was good enough to be called up for England on last year's form. Now though he is for sure, agree though SL not a fan of specialists it seem.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Kvesic was absolutely good enough, and always has been... as evidenced by him outperforming the other back rowers he's played with in every single senior side he has played for - by a distance.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Has he played with any particularly notable blindsides, though?
Can't remember who it was at Worcester, but the ones at Gloucester have hardly been vintage.


Not saying that as a slight on him, mind. Just that I wouldn't use that as a selling point - it's like saying Pennell has stood out in the Worcester back 3

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How many motm awards has he got this season?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Has he played with any particularly notable blindsides, though?
Can't remember who it was at Worcester, but the ones at Gloucester have hardly been vintage.


Not saying that as a slight on him, mind. Just that I wouldn't use that as a selling point - it's like saying Pennell has stood out in the Worcester back 3

He's played with Wood and Haskell a handful of times for England and looked significantly more capable than the pair of them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's a good point - I was thinking just domestic, rather than international.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Ummm why does anyone think kvesic will solve the breakdown problems.

Having 1 player in the team won't make our forwards take the ball from deep and at pace!

If kvesic performs better than robshaw, include him.....but he isn't a better player than robshaw. What two points of difference does he offer?

I'm not saying he's not a good player but we are talking about usurping the England captain here

 

[ratsapprentice]

No... we're talking about him or Ewers usurping Wood and Haskell....

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

No... we're talking about him or Ewers usurping Wood and Haskell....

Why would kvesic usurp wood or Haskell at 6 unless you mean as a second choice 7?

 

[ratsapprentice]

He wouldn't, Robshaw would move to 6... as has been mentioned, Lancaster has shown he has little regard for specialists - I don't think he cares particularly for the traditional flanker delineations.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...for-Rugby-World-Cup-squad-and-rightly-so.html

Surprisingly fair article from the telegraph on the England RWC squad.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

He wouldn't, Robshaw would move to 6... as has been mentioned, Lancaster has shown he has little regard for specialists - I don't think he cares particularly for the traditional flanker delineations.

Robshaw wouldn't be a very good 6 anymore. He has worked to ch age his style of play and body to that of a 7. The only way kvesic is getting into the team is being better in (lancasters two points of difference) than robshaw.

I'm not arguing kvesic isn't top drawer, I just think robshaw is better international player for England and what we need.