England in the AIs

[TRF_Olyy]

Thought we should get a thread going, only a few weeks until we thrash the colonies

EPS squad:
Forwards
David Attwood
George Chuter
Dan Cole
Tom Croft
Paul Doran-Jones
Nick Easter
Hendre Fourie
Dylan Hartley
James Haskell
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Moody
Tom Palmer
Tim Payne
Simon Shaw
Andrew Sheridan
Steve Thompson
David Wilson
Joe Worsley

Backs
Delon Armitage
Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Danny Care
Mark Cueto
Toby Flood
Riki Flutey
Ben Foden
Shontayne Hape
David Strettle
Mike Tindall
Dominic Waldouck
Jonny Wilkinson
Ben Youngs


Just read that Moody is a maybe for the first tests as he's injured himself again, which leaves captain open to speculation.
I'm not sure who Johnson will go with. Is he likely to go with a club captain? If so, he's got Mike Tindall, Dylan Hartley and Tom Croft (only capatained once for Tigers though). However if Moody is out, then maybe Robshaw will be brought up from Saxons, and he could be an outside shout? Though it could be anyone, maybe Steve Thompson? Nick Easter?



What are peoples thoughts for the squad for the ABs? I think (this isn't what I want, but what i expect to see):

Payne
Thompson
Coles
Lawes
Palmer
Croft
Haskell
Easter
Youngs
Flood
Ashton
Hape
Tindall
Strettle
Foden

Hartley
Wilson
Sheridan (if there's 23 players)
Shaw
Fourie
Care
Wilkinson
Armitage/Cueto

If Wilkinson is injured then Flutey on the bench in his spot.
I think that Attwood, Doran-Jones, Waldouck and BananaMan will be used in the Samoa match, maybe SA as well. Don't think they'll be in there from the start though.
In an ideal world though, i'd lose strettle for Cueto (may not be as fast as strettle, but can play rugby and tackle better), lose Payne for Doran-Jones or Wilson (Wilson is good for the bench though, if it's only a 22 as he plays both sides of the scrum). Also i'd drop Hape, and put Waldouck in there (or even Flutey).
I'm not happy with Easter being there as well, but there's not a lot of choice. Maybe if Robshaw get's called up, move Haskell to 8? But then again Robshaw plays 6 almost specifically. Maybe Ward-Smith will be called up, but Johnson likes him on the bench as lock cover as well (or just as a lock)

 

[SecondRow04]

I have a suspicion that Borthwick will be picked if Moody is out, which will be a backwards step in my opinion. Its a shame that Steffon Armitage is injured as he could have slotted in nicely here as i think a fetcher is needed. Lawes, Ashton, Youngs, Foden must start against the NZ and SA to test them. I think the team will be similiar to Olyy's although i think Wilkinson will start unless Flood has recoverd in time. The win against Australia wasn't that impressive but i was happy, we now need to put in good showings against the likes of NZ.

the team i would pick would be

1. Wilson
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Palmer
6. Croft
7. Fourie - for the fetching side, if not Robshaw
8. Easter/ Ward-Smith
9. Youngs
10. Flood if fit
11. Cueto/Banahan if used right can be devistating
12. Hape
13. Tindall
14. Ashton, right wing!
15. Foden

16. Hartley
17. Doran-Jones/Sheridan
18. Attwood/Ward-Smith
19. Haskell
20. Care
21. Wilkinson
22. any of Armitage/Waldouck/Flutey

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Flood is expected back at Leicester within the next week or two, so that gives two weeksish to see if he's fully recovered/back up to pace

I really hope that Borthwick isn't called up, especially as it appears noone replaced Armitage when he went, so that's two 7s lost (the only two? I think Haskell plays 6 or 8) - however interviews keep cropping up from Johnson and Borthwick, with the former saying how hard it was to let him go and wants him back, and the latter saying he's trying to prove himself.
The sad thing is, if Borthwick is recalled, we can wave bye bye to Lawes until the 6N (at least)

I agree Banahan can be very effective, when used right. However i can't see him taking Ashtons shirt, and i think Strettle will be the other wing, leaving Banahan in the "less important" game of Samoa, where his power won't be as effective smashing into them as it would, say, smashing into Giteau of JOC

 

[SecondRow04]

If thats the case then i hope Flood is back, but if not Wilko will have to do, with Hodgson on the bench.

Yeah seems silly having only two 7's well one propper 7 in the squad. We have some good 7's about, maybe a recall for Tom Rees is on the cards. I think him or Robshaw will be called up to the main squad. Oh wait i see Joe Worsley's name there, no need to guess who will be 7 now.

Borthwick shouldn't be called back up, he's not needed as we have good choices in Lawes and Palmer, with Attwood looking strong. I'm just hoping Strettle doesn't play after ESPN have been jizzing over him so far this season. His defence is awful and will probably get injured. I'd pick Vainikolo way before i'd pick him and thats saying something.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah, completely missed Worsely.
With him and Payne (likely to be) in the squad, that cuts out any running game we might have, they love the pick and drive (well, pick and lose 2m)

 

[gingergenius]

Well the EPS needs having a look at. I fail to see how, especially under the current laws, the only proper 7 we have is a journeyman South African who's played little more than a season of top level rugby, and that for a poor team. And Moody, who has never been a proper 7 but would have played, isn't fully fit. Steffon Armitage is injured, Andy Saull has just come back from injury and needs to find form. Tom Rees is still knocking about, as is Will Skinner. Both of whom I'd rather have than Fourie even though neither is on particularly strong form.


Based on the squad atm and who's fit, I'd have
1. Sheridan
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Attwood
5. Lawes
6. Croft
7. Fourie (Saull if brought into EPS)
8. Easter (c)
9. Youngs
10. Wilkinson (eek. Flood shouldn't be rushed back even if he's the only half decent option)
11. Cueto
12. Waldouck
13. Hape (because Tindall's surely too old)
14. Ashton
15. Foden

16. Chuter
17. Wilson
18. Shaw
19. Haskell (again, it astounds me that Dowson is not in EPS)
20. Care
21. Flood/ Myler if TF isn't fit.
22. Armitage

All in all - not an awful side. No way will it beat the All Blacks; it might have some success against the rest if everyone plays to the top of their game. The front row is very strong, even if there are question marks over Sheridan. Engine room is stuffed full of power. Back row - looks suspect. Easter gives solidity and not too much more, Croft flits from being world class to nonexistant, and Fourie will be outplayed by every 7 he comes up against.

Backs look very exciting if the ball ever gets past Wilkinson. Shame he's the only conceivable player to put in there with Flood out.

Bench - not too bad.

Based on Prem form and where we're lacking, Phil Dowson and Topsy Ojo really need to get an add to the EPS. Based on necessity, so does Andy Saull/ Tom Rees and Steven Myler.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agree about Downson, probably the form backrower in the AP atm.
I'd like to see David Seymour (eventually) make it into the England squad. He's a good player, and while the rest of Sale seem to content to play 40mins per match, he gives 100% for 80mins, and was cracking last season as well

Tindall is doing alright this season so far (had an absolute blinder against Bath the other day) - seems to have gotten his second wind. I agree he is ancient, but with the world cup only next year then that doesn't really matter - if he's still there after the WC then questions can be asked, because he's just taking a spot from someone who can be trained up for the next WC.

The weird thing about Wilkinson is that he plays so so much better for Toulon than for England. I don't know whether it's Johnson telling him to be ****, but at Toulon he's on good form, and the press (and fans) love him out there. Hopefully with the emphasis on quick play and runnning (well, it was over the summer at least, God knows what they'll be doing next month) he'll play like he does in France

 

[tinchy17]

Lewis Moodys missing the AIs I think

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lewis Moodys missing the AIs I think

Did you read the first post?

 

[tinchy17]

Did you read the first post?

Whoops! Sorry.

 

[BjR]

Well im from New Zealand and support the All Blacks, so I know almost nothing about English rugby, but id like to see something like:

1. Wilson
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Palmer
6. Croft
7. Fourie
8. Ward-Smith
9. Care
10. Wilkinson
11. Banah
12. Flutey
13. Hape
14. Cueto
15. Foden

What do you think?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Forwards are probably on the mark (if Ward-Smith is called up, which i don't know if he will)
Care can be hit or miss, some games he'll be good and/or be good coming off the bench (i.e the second test against Australia, where he came on for Youngs in the second half) but can also be really slow. If you were going to use Wilkinson at 10, you really need people around him to push him forwards/speed up the game. People say he hasn't been good since around the 03 world cup (well, people who watch rugby not just read the tabloids :lol: ) and look at who he had around him bossing him then: Dawson and Greenwood, two great players with real intensity. He wasn't getting that with Ellis/Noon in more recent times.
Banahan i'm not sure, he's decent but Ashton is way better
Tindall yes, Hape no. He's a liability (dodgy tackling) not too fast, alright offloading, alright positioning. Waldouck is much better.
Agree with 14/15 as well

 

[Phlegm & Poise]

For me, Tindall would be one of the first name's on the sheet. He has pure biff about him and is never afraid of any opposition. I'm not saying he's the most gifted of players to pull on the England shirt, but he's surely one of the most plucky.

Other names who have forced their way in are Cole, Thompson, Ashton, Foden, Youngs. Then you have the players who have done ok and will be picked for continuity - Easter, Cueto, Croft, Palmer, Moody, Flood (if fit). The rest is a case of 'who have we got'. Wouldn't mind seeing Flatman involved. Think Haskell has the attributes to be a good'un if he can get his rugger brain together. Rees, Narraway, Lawes, Armitage likewise. The other Armitage is picking up some form too apparently so he presents another option at fullback. Not too much a fan of Hape, Fourie or Flutey. Surely there are men of English stock out there who can do the same mediocre job?

Quietly optimistic about these games. We biffed the Aussies about in the forwards over the summer. NZ are a better allround unit and won't have as many injuries as the Wallabies, but their front row has a job on it's hands. I think the breakdown is the place we'll lose it really. We're just not savvy enough. If we can get parity there then our backline has potential, for sure. Who knows?

Unfortunately I won't be making any of these tour dates bar possibly Samoa.

NZ by 5
England by 1
England by 8
SA by 2

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think we're doing better in the backs (well: well except 12, and potentially 10) it's the backrow where we get let down. With the exception of Croft none of the EPS backrow particularly interest me. There's not much use having Youngs/Ashton/Foden in the backs if all our ball is getting robbed
Why do the SH teams get all the luck with backrows? Where's our Pocock/McCaw?

 

[gingergenius]

I think we're doing better in the backs (well: well except 12, and potentially 10) it's the backrow where we get let down. With the exception of Croft none of the EPS backrow particularly interest me. There's not much use having Youngs/Ashton/Foden in the backs if all our ball is getting robbed
Why do the SH teams get all the luck with backrows? Where's our Pocock/McCaw?

even if we had one, i'm sure the insistance on playing 6s like Moody and Worsley in the 7 shirt would have got in the way...

good call on Seymour, I remember people talking about him when he was with us as a future England guy, and he seems to have come on leaps and bounds at Sale.

 

[Duckdee]

I doubt it'll happen, but I'd like Flood to miss the AIs. Let him get some proper form for the 6N, and Leicester are gonna need him. >.>

 

[Teh Mite]

Well im from New Zealand and support the All Blacks, so I know almost nothing about English rugby, but id like to see something like:

1. Wilson
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Palmer
6. Croft
7. Fourie
8. Ward-Smith
9. Care
10. Wilkinson
11. Banah
12. Flutey
13. Hape
14. Cueto
15. Foden

What do you think?

If you're a Kiwi I bet you would like to see that! Not too sure the English would though!

 

[Teh Mite]

For me, Tindall would be one of the first name's on the sheet. He has pure biff about him and is never afraid of any opposition. I'm not saying he's the most gifted of players to pull on the England shirt, but he's surely one of the most plucky.

Other names who have forced their way in are Cole, Thompson, Ashton, Foden, Youngs. Then you have the players who have done ok and will be picked for continuity - Easter, Cueto, Croft, Palmer, Moody, Flood (if fit). The rest is a case of 'who have we got'. Wouldn't mind seeing Flatman involved. Think Haskell has the attributes to be a good'un if he can get his rugger brain together. Rees, Narraway, Lawes, Armitage likewise. The other Armitage is picking up some form too apparently so he presents another option at fullback. Not too much a fan of Hape, Fourie or Flutey. Surely there are men of English stock out there who can do the same mediocre job?

Quietly optimistic about these games. We biffed the Aussies about in the forwards over the summer. NZ are a better allround unit and won't have as many injuries as the Wallabies, but their front row has a job on it's hands. I think the breakdown is the place we'll lose it really. We're just not savvy enough. If we can get parity there then our backline has potential, for sure. Who knows?

Unfortunately I won't be making any of these tour dates bar possibly Samoa.

NZ by 5
England by 1
England by 8
SA by 2

If he plays like he did against Bath last weekend, Tindall isn't such a bad shout. However there's still the risk he'll go missing as he has oft times before. Seeing how he gets on for the challenge cup matches over the next fortnight may hold the key in that department. Playing inside him I guess the best options would be Walduck or Barritt (Yes, I know he's not English). Without that lot though, the midfield is really stuck; Hape isn't good enough, Barkley is too flakey, Clarke has lost all his pace and Noon... No, I won't go there. Tait is the only other option, but how many chances does he need before he'll finally deliver anything?

Just another point you raise which makes me think is about Thompson; He was extremely good during the summer tour, but has done precisely bugger all since joining Leeds. Rivaling him for the shirt is Hartley who's been over-all very good since the season started but can never replicate his performances in an England shirt. Flip a coin and pick your hooker that way. Just so long as Mears, Chuter and Paice are kept well away from the England team (Oh please god!)

 

[Shaggy]

I doubt it'll happen, but I'd like Flood to miss the AIs. Let him get some proper form for the 6N, and Leicester are gonna need him. >.>

Isn't playing for your country more important than playing for your club?

 

[Teh Mite]

Isn't playing for your country more important than playing for your club?

Depend if you support a club or not.