England EPS 2017/18 edition.

[Ragey Erasmus]

I know that last season he had a good try scoring record for England but my point is that recently he's done nothing and that even when he was in good form for England he was poor for Bath, so surely the likes of Lewington could replicate that for England too? I agree on your points about FB entirely, but I'm talking about the wing

Like I said, we shouldn't drop him entirely but what do we have to lose by testing other options? If they work out then great we have more good options, if not then oh well, we still have Watson.

My point was he offers the skills he has as a FB when he is on the wing too. I'm not really sure any Bath players club form can be taken for all that much, we've been all over the place for the last 2 years. Hell compare Ford at Bath to England post Burgess fiasco. I'd say pretty much every Bath player performs better internationally than at club level, except Banahan.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

My point was he offers the skills he has as a FB when he is on the wing too. I'm not really sure any Bath players club form can be taken for all that much, we've been all over the place for the last 2 years. Hell compare Ford at Bath to England post Burgess fiasco. I'd say pretty much every Bath player performs better internationally than at club level, except Banahan.

Alternatively though, yes Bath form is poor but look at Lewington, part of a team that's guaranteed to be relegated and has been getting dire ball all season but still carves teams up. Watson isn't able to do the same damage with much better service.

 

[Scotty]

What do people think of Watson? Watson on the wing at least. I know everyone wants to see him overtake Brown at FB but assuming that doesn't happen, does he deserve to be starting on the wing for England? TBH I'd say not. Other than the Toulon game, when was the last time he did anything really that special? This season May, Lewington, Woodburn, Daly and even his older brother have all been in far better form. We all seem to think of Watson starting as being a given but thinking about his performances for Bath in the last couple of seasons I think you have to question why that is. I'm not condoning dropping him full stop, but maybe giving the likes of Lewington a shot would light the fire under his ass that he really needs ATM. With EJ's eyes set on the RWC, experimenting with one or two new players while putting pressure on our current crop to improve seems like far from a bad idea.

Agree with Rage above, also for bath when they are playing bad he is still looking strong and still finding the gaps and making ground, he doesnt shy away from challenging for a highball and as said does the basics right, if he were chose on the wing ahead pf daly i would not be worried for england despite who deserves the spot.....still not a big fan of may. He just runs fast...

 

[Scotty]

Alternatively though, yes Bath form is poor but look at Lewington, part of a team that's guaranteed to be relegated and has been getting dire ball all season but still carves teams up. Watson isn't able to do the same damage with much better service.

Not saying lewington isnt the real deal at all because he is quality but was it Lirish yarde used to play for? He carved it up but never quite lived up. Looking great for a poor team doesnt mean he will transfer hisform and outshine the likes of watson even in current form even though i dont think his form his that bad

 

[TommiG88]

Alternatively though, yes Bath form is poor but look at Lewington, part of a team that's guaranteed to be relegated and has been getting dire ball all season but still carves teams up. Watson isn't able to do the same damage with much better service.

I think you're over complementing Lewington. I've watched him in a number of games this season, and he doesn't show himself in glory. He's had the odd good try, but all round performance wise has been average. Although he is playing for the bottom side.

 

[curtbob7]

I think you're over complementing Lewington. I've watched him in a number of games this season, and he doesn't show himself in glory. He's had the odd good try, but all round performance wise has been average. Although he is playing for the bottom side.

I agree. Overhyped.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Look at the selection of England tries from 2016 and 2017 if you want to see what Watson offers on the wing. Small note, he had the highest strike rate of any NH winger. He offers more of a threat running than Brown, is solid in all the basics of a FB and has good support play running lines off others. I have no problem trying other wingers but I don't think Watson is the weak link there.

I'm not sure if the point has been made on these forums (apologies to whoever has made it if so), but Eddie Jones has been quoted recently as saying something along the lines of that he doesn't watch club rugby to see how players play for their clubs, he watches to see how he thinks they would perform in international rugby. Reading between the lines, club form isn't all that important to him and applying this here, I suspect that he views Watson as a test match animal.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Lewington is a good player; an above average Prem winger.

I guess we'll see how well he can play for a top side next season, if the rumour are to be believed.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Watson's a nailed on starter for me. Preferably at 15, but wing if not. He should have 35+ caps by the time of the RWC which is the kind of experience needed. Interesting that he is also younger than all the alternatives that Toby named so has scope to improve further. International rugby's less about the occasional spectacular and more about consistently doing the right thing under pressure. He doesn't appear particularly prone to brain farts.

Don't disagree that we need a power runner to complement the sprinters in the back 3 though.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Watson's a nailed on starter for me. Preferably at 15, but wing if not. He should have 35+ caps by the time of the RWC which is the kind of experience needed. Interesting that he is also younger than all the alternatives that Toby named so has scope to improve further. International rugby's less about the occasional spectacular and more about consistently doing the right thing under pressure. He doesn't appear particularly prone to brain farts.

Don't disagree that we need a power runner to complement the sprinters in the back 3 though.

This is probably a better discussion to have; it's the significantly more pressing issue. For me, they'll have to slot in at 13. In my mind Ford-Faz is bolted on at 10-12 and no powerful back three players have put their hands up. It'll be interesting to see how Earle and Cokonasiga develop, but they won't be getting a real look in this RWC cycle. So that leaves 13.

The 2 stand out options are obviously Te'o and Tuilagi, but both come with significant flaws. Te'o was fantastic on the Lions tour and I think has the quality to be an England starter but to back someone who will be 34 by 2019 is a pretty major gamble and so although I wouldn't rule him out, I'd try to avoid him if other options are available. Tuilagi is the most devastating centre on the planet when he's in form but form is obviously the major issue. Even if he's able to go uninjured, he's gotten far too big. He looks lethargic when he's running, as if he's trying to beat defenders with weight rather than with power - almost Bastareaud-esque. Backing such an injury prone player to redevelop the level of pace and explosiveness that made him so dangerous prior to his injuries would again be a pretty major gamble.

For those reasons, if we are to slot a powerful ball carrier into the team then it'd make sense to look elsewhere. The player that immediately stands out to me is Sam Hill. He's been seriously impressive since returning from injury; immensely physical in both attack and defence. Beyond that he's actually got a much better distribution game than he's given credit for and pretty mean footwork. I'd also expect him to be significantly faster than both Te'o and Tuilagi. The issue with him is of course that he has no experience at international level and with such strong competition for centre slots at Chiefs isn't even guaranteed to be starting for his club every week. Also the fact that he hasn't been selected for a single England squad since being an injury replacement for Slade in the 2016 Six Nations shows that EJ has no real interest in him.

So in conclusion, as it stands we have no reliable power runner to come into the side and so this was a waste of a post. Oops.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

What are people's thoughts on giving someone like Charlie Walker a shot? Having a fantastic season and have always seen potential, but it feels like so many of the England Squad are shoe-ins at the moment that you can't really drop any big names even to give new players a shot. We didn't really experiment against Samoa that much, so maybe what the BaBa's game is about?

 

[Mumbles119]

This is probably a better discussion to have; it's the significantly more pressing issue. For me, they'll have to slot in at 13. In my mind Ford-Faz is bolted on at 10-12 and no powerful back three players have put their hands up. It'll be interesting to see how Earle and Cokonasiga develop, but they won't be getting a real look in this RWC cycle. So that leaves 13.

The 2 stand out options are obviously Te'o and Tuilagi, but both come with significant flaws. Te'o was fantastic on the Lions tour and I think has the quality to be an England starter but to back someone who will be 34 by 2019 is a pretty major gamble and so although I wouldn't rule him out, I'd try to avoid him if other options are available. Tuilagi is the most devastating centre on the planet when he's in form but form is obviously the major issue. Even if he's able to go uninjured, he's gotten far too big. He looks lethargic when he's running, as if he's trying to beat defenders with weight rather than with power - almost Bastareaud-esque. Backing such an injury prone player to redevelop the level of pace and explosiveness that made him so dangerous prior to his injuries would again be a pretty major gamble.

For those reasons, if we are to slot a powerful ball carrier into the team then it'd make sense to look elsewhere. The player that immediately stands out to me is Sam Hill. He's been seriously impressive since returning from injury; immensely physical in both attack and defence. Beyond that he's actually got a much better distribution game than he's given credit for and pretty mean footwork. I'd also expect him to be significantly faster than both Te'o and Tuilagi. The issue with him is of course that he has no experience at international level and with such strong competition for centre slots at Chiefs isn't even guaranteed to be starting for his club every week. Also the fact that he hasn't been selected for a single England squad since being an injury replacement for Slade in the 2016 Six Nations shows that EJ has no real interest in him.

So in conclusion, as it stands we have no reliable power runner to come into the side and so this was a waste of a post. Oops.

I always a fan of watching Sam Hill, especially for Eng U20s. Does he play much at 13? For me that position really needs the pace as well to ensure the larger spaces can be defended. Plus, although a 13 may have to be a less frequent playmaker than 12, the passes to outside are usually at more pace or length.
My own view of Sam Hill, is that he is much more of tight space 12 in his play style. I suppose someone like Devoto should have been someone to have stepped and fill this large pacey skillful 13 model.

Maybe players like a Sam James could step up? But another option could be Ryan Mills, as he seems to be rated well and maybe could develop into a 13 model as above, or is he stuck on wanting to be a 10/12?

For my personal England preference I don't think we need to deliberately fit in a larger 13, I would also prefer it to be one of the wings. I liek how Joseph works at 13 for England and he still is an excellent defender and is skillful enough too. Daly is potentially the same 13 type as Joseph with a few slightly different strength and weaknesses, but still isn't this bigger 13 shape we could have. I think the choices we have of Joseph, Daly, Teo and Slade cover enough now for 13.

So I definitely agree that an Earle or Cokanasiga would fit the larger winger requirement if they succeed the step up. But for a ready made larger wing available right now? Not sure there any immediate choices... so my preference would be Nowell to fulfill that tight space powerful back three carrier, he does always make the yards in contact that other wingers don't.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think with the 13 issue it's basically looking at how Joseph is not getting space and can't bash through defences, the solution being get someone who can. Surely we need to look at why our 13 doesn't have the space to operate? A good team should be repeatedly giving their 13 space and we are consistently having JJ running at 3 defenders because we have allowed the defence to drift. I don't think our problem is lack of bashing power outside, it's the lack of credible bashing power inside to fix the defences. We tend to telegraph when we are going to go wide and the few times we don't, JJ shines. Any basher at 13 would still be facing the same defenders and would nearly always be outnumbered based on how we are playing. They'd have a little more success than JJ bashing through but I think they would still fail 9/10. On the flip side we lose a great defending back who always threatens the intercept and is electric when actually given space.

I'm not opposed to a heavier back but I don't think it will do much to fix the fundamental issue England have with properly fixing defences when they move wide.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I really like the idea of Slade at 13. Not a classic arcing 13, but a play maker with a good passing game in more open space with real speedsters outside really appeals. 12 could be Teo or Manu as the bosher. Would like one of the wings to be a bit more powerful too, but not to that degree.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Ford-Farrell-Slade is an overdose of playmakers without a single linebreaker though. Ford-Farrell seems to work and is probably nailed on, but I've always been a bit cagy about Faz's lack of running threat to hold defenders. Hence (partly) JJ's problems in the outside channel.

Much as I love JJ, maybe in attack he isn't the best choice with the game plan? For me there are 3 possible options to improve penetration:

1) 12 becomes a linebreaking threat - whether that means Faz learning sone new skills or a selection change (not sure which is less likely)

2) Pick a power winger and get him involved in the midfield a lot (not sure who. Roko our of favour, no other obvious choices)

3) Drop JJ for a power centre (Teo is old and one dimensional, Tuilagi is made of chocolate and one dimensional)

Of course all that ignores defence which is 50% of the game, I don't believe anyone can challenge JJ on that score.

Not sure what our best option is to be honest ... all are uninspiring or impractical.

More ball carriers in the pack never hurt, a defender held always creates space somewhere so maybe the solution doesn't lie solely in the backline

Or maybe this is just an accepted flaw in an all round strong gameplan. Most gameplans have some flaws, even really good ones

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I want
9) Youngs
10) Ford
11) Cips
12) Faz
13) Slade
14) Daly
15) Lozowski

damn it.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I want
9) Youngs
10) Ford
11) Cips
12) Faz
13) Slade
14) Daly
15) Lozowski

damn it.

yeaaaaahhhh... dont expect that anytime soon

 

[Scotty]

IMO the problem is not our back line its our forwards, our gameplan with ford faz jj, it works but it works when we get quick ball. We get on the front foot and our backline works having a tuilagi/teo on the bench works for when we arnt dominating up front. We need more power in the backline but we need more carrying in our fwds (billy helps that)

Mako
George
Sinkler
Itoje
Lawes
Robshaw
Simmonds (go on Tigs take your shot)
Billy

Thats the pack id choose as our strongest available to give our backs quick ball and make metres putting the opposition on the back foot. Underhill in for robshaw when fit. But least 5 carriers front row and 7 8.



Someone mentioned sam hill, not a bad option but needs to prove himself on the easier games but v strong carrier

 

[Scotty]

I want
9) Youngs
10) Ford
11) Cips
12) Faz
13) Slade
14) Daly
15) Lozowski

damn it.

World besting back line right there haha

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Simmonds (go on Tigs take your shot)

I would never take a shot at Simmonds saviour of English rugby I still have that Exeter Glous game on record just for his performance.

I feel he will be the one to take Maro Itoje legendary hand clap to another level