England EPS 2016/17 season.

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well we haven't had a premiership coach for some years now so it may be a fair comment. At the same time, there is no denying that Aviva clubs would most likely lose more than they win if they went up against SH clubs, especially NZ ones. It could be that the wealth of talent in NZ makes their coaching look superior or their superior coaching is what produces such good players? Only way to find out is to send some of our coaches down south. Fact remains though, Ireland and Wales both massively upped their games after getting SH coaches and it appears England now have too. Scotland... To hard to say. They are up and down all over the place but don't produce the same level of shoddy performances that drove Andy Robinson so crazy. 2 former coaches of Wales have gone on to lead the All Blacks. At the very least it exposes you to a different playing style, you do not get the same forwards dominated slugfests down south as you can repeatedly see in the Aviva.

 

[Peat]

We haven't had a Premiership coach but what English Premiership coach would you have wanted in all this time?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Would of taken Richards over Robinson and Ashton TBH.

Hell would of taken Edwards over some.

 

[Peat]

Would of taken Richards over Robinson and Ashton TBH.

Hell would of taken Edwards over some.

Not over, but would have you actively wanted? Were they England calibre?

And are they are any other names you'd add to the list?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Not over, but would have you actively wanted? Were they England calibre?

And are they are any other names you'd add to the list?

But isn't that the point of what Cockers was saying? If they where not ready or not but both had won things recently with their clubs.

Where the coaches that where picked England calibre?

 

[Peat]

But isn't that the point of what Cockers was saying? If they where not ready or not but both had won things recently with their clubs.

Where the coaches that where picked England calibre?

I thought the point of what Cockerill was saying is "Why don't they help us become international calibre". Which makes sense.

My point was in reply to RR's comment about there not being an AP coach in charge of England for a long time. My point is that the AP basically doesn't produce guys you'd want coaching England. Whether the guy who got the gig instead was someone you'd want coaching England either is besides the point for me. Either they have the quality or they don't. No good candidates is no good candidates.

Personally I think its a shame that Richards will probably never be England head coach due to Bloodgate. He's the one coach out there who can point to a genuine track record of success. Edwards took Gatland's all-destroying monster and won a HEC with it, I'm not sure why he should be in contention for an international head coach spot although he'd have probably done as well or badly as some.

And frankly, Ritchie has given the answer to English coaches. Go out there and get the experience that makes you better coaches. Don't sit there on your arse waiting for things to happen. I'm sure that's very comfy but it won't make you excellent. The RFU wants excellence. They should do. Its a shame the English AP coaches aren't interested.

 

[ratsapprentice]

And frankly, Ritchie has given the answer to English coaches. Go out there and get the experience that makes you better coaches. Don't sit there on your arse waiting for things to happen. I'm sure that's very comfy but it won't make you excellent. The RFU wants excellence. They should do. Its a shame the English AP coaches aren't interested.

It's a fair point.

They've been told what the RFU require and said, "nope, sorry... can't do that".

Fair enough - you won't get the job then.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

but as Young points out NH coaches are not desired in the south unless the RFU want them to go to the Top 14 which IMO isn't that much different from the AP.

It isn't easy for a AP head coach to go right I need to coach in NZ, Aus or SA.

The only coaches that could do that are the ones who are either not employed by an AP club (sacked) and work for the RFU already or are coaches like Murphy who will go to NZ for a month experiance for free.

And personally Richards should of been England coach before blood gate had even happened.

 

[Every Time Ref]

It's a fair point.

They've been told what the RFU require and said, "nope, sorry... can't do that".

Fair enough - you won't get the job then.

I do have some sympathy for Cockerill's point though (much as I hate typing that...) - saying "you guys need to go do X" is not the same as a communicative, collaborative ongoing relationship between prospective England coaches and the RFU.

 

[Which Tyler]

Bloody Eddie Jones, and selecting Lozowski ahead of Cipriani!

2015-16

2016-17

 

[Peat]

I don't think Ritchie specified they had to do coaching experience in the big three and I don't think that's the only abroad coaching experience that will stand to them. New cultures, new ideas, they always help. Personally I'd like to see more English coaches go into the Pro 12; the breakdown is usually far better reffed and the route to international experience is far shorter there. Or do a Diamond and get a job with a Tier 2 country.

I accept that these things are problematic for current Premiership DoRs and Head Coaches. But I don't care. Its not my problem if they don't want to be suitable candidates for the England coaching role. The ball is in their court and if they don't want to take a risk and keep learning, then England will employ someone else.

edit:

I do have some sympathy for Cockerill's point though (much as I hate typing that...) - saying "you guys need to go do X" is not the same as a communicative, collaborative ongoing relationship between prospective England coaches and the RFU.

Its not, but not many of these guys show much interest in being prospective England coaches anyway ^_^

Slightly more seriously, have any of them looked at forming such a relationship? Or even suggested such a thing at the moment?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I do have some sympathy for Cockerill's point though (much as I hate typing that...) - saying "you guys need to go do X" is not the same as a communicative, collaborative ongoing relationship between prospective England coaches and the RFU.

He's not saying "you guys need to go and do x", he's saying "we want people who have done x".

 

[Every Time Ref]

He's not saying "you guys need to go and do x", he's saying "we want people who have done x".

Surely the distinction is pretty academic

Its not, but not many of these guys show much interest in being prospective England coaches anyway ^_^

Slightly more seriously, have any of them looked at forming such a relationship? Or even suggested such a thing at the moment?

I guess we don't know, but even if they haven't that doesn't absolve the RFU

 

[Which Tyler]

"I think there are quality coaches in the Premiership but it's about how you help them. I don't know if I can coach at Test level because I've never done it. But there is nobody within the RFU who is helping with that knowledge. Nobody from the union has spoken to me about it, ever. Nobody from the union – as far as I know – has every asked any of the coaches in the Premiership: 'If an opportunity came in three years' time, would you like to be part of the England set-up?' Those conversations don't happen. They just have a knee-jerk reaction when someone gets the sack, don't they?

The problem with those quotes though, is that they're outright wrong. Cockerill may not have had those conversations, but that doesn't mean that no-one has.
Baxter, Hepher, Haag, Gustard (before getting the role full-time) etc have all gone on England / Saxon tours.
they may not have been asked if they want a job in 3 years time; but then, that's really not how the job works, for England or anyone else.

IMO it's not the RFU's job to make sure that potential coaches get experience at international level, or even coaching overseas. If you want that on your resume, then go and do it - volunteer your time with Belgium; or apply for a job in France. If you're happy that your resume is restricted to Prem rugby only, then don't be surprised when you're overlooked for someone with more diverse experience than you.

 

[Peat]

I guess we don't know, but even if they haven't that doesn't absolve the RFU

Guess not but hey, its not their problem.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think alot of the coaches are offend that premiership coaches judging by the comments, feel that Ritchie is saying that being just a premiership coach isn't good enough when in fact a premiership coach hasn't actually been given a shot straight from a club in over 10 years and 5/6 coaches.

And TBF they have a point IMO the only English head coach to come straight from an AP team to the England head coach role is the one that won the RWC.

 

[BPM]

I think alot of the coaches are offend that premiership coaches judging by the comments, feel that Ritchie is saying that being just a premiership coach isn't good enough when in fact a premiership coach hasn't actually been given a shot straight from a club in over 10 years and 5/6 coaches.

And TBF they have a point IMO the only English head coach to come straight from an AP team to the England head coach role is the one that won the RWC.

Agreed. Potentially coaching a tier 2 international side would be beneficial, but I don't believe that coaching in the Pro12 or Top 14 would add that much to a AP coach's CV? The style of rugby is different, but no significantly enough for it to be really worthwhile and the reality is, I think it would be highly unlikely that an NH coach would get a shot with a Super Rugby outfit.

 

[Peat]

I think alot of the coaches are offend that premiership coaches judging by the comments, feel that Ritchie is saying that being just a premiership coach isn't good enough when in fact a premiership coach hasn't actually been given a shot straight from a club in over 10 years and 5/6 coaches.

And TBF they have a point IMO the only English head coach to come straight from an AP team to the England head coach role is the one that won the RWC.

Ritchie is saying that and Ritchie is mostly right. Premiership coaches haven't been given a shot because, by and large, they haven't been the sort of guy a major international side would want to give a shot to. That's not on Ritchie. It may be on the RFU a little, there's been one or two occasions where maybe they could have gone for it. Mainly its on the coaches though. And if they're insulted by someone pointing out the truth then maybe they need to be a bit more honest with themselves about the standard of Englishman coaching in our league and the difference between their CVs and most international coaches' CVs.

And Woodward was a club assistant coach as well as being the then-England U21 coach. He never coached abroad but he did have four years of playing there. I don't think he was ever a head coach at the top level (left London Irish after getting them promoted). His CV isn't the sort that club coaches are calling to be given a go. His CV is the sort that the RFU is looking for.

BPM - The ability to succeed in multiple different environments and cultures is a pretty big deal. Even small details picked up elsewhere can be the difference between winning and losing. I think you discount this too readily.


Anyway, regardless of whether we think its right or wrong, the facts are that this is what the RFU wants and that the RFU are unlikely to change their minds. Up to people whether they want to go after the job; if they don't, there's plenty of people who do fit the bill. Complaining in the papers won't change a single thing.


I'd just like to add...

Bath - Kiwi in charge, Taff running the attack
Bristol - Welsh in charge of defence, Welsh in charge of attack & skills, Kiwi in charge of forwards
Exeter - Zilch
Glaws - Irish & Aussie in charge, Irish running the defence
Quins - Zilch
Newcastle - Err, Scottish lineout coach... okay, zilch really.
Tigers - Kiwi as head coach, Kiwi doing defence, Irish assistant coach
Saints - Zilch
Sorries - Irish in charge (can't say more because their site doesn't list)
Sale - Kiwi breakdown coach. Only guys with a specialist breakdown coach in fact, I think.
Wuss - Scot in charge, Scot running defence, Welsh helping with the forwards
Pests - Welsh in charge, Aussie running defence

Next generation of English coaches mightn't have much option but to go overseas to cut their teeth anyway tbh.

 

[welshglory]

Coaching development and pathways seem to be significantly poorer and disjointed in the Northern Hemisphere compared to the Southern Hemisphere (South Africa and New Zealand in particular). Perhaps there needs to be more use of the Welsh Premiership/RFU Championship second tier levels to bring through coaches like they are in the NPC and Currie Cup where coaches need to earn their stripes, that isn't really in the RFU's hands in England's case though so i can see why Ritchie doesn't really have answers. I think it starts by improving supply at domestic level.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Thinking about it, I suppose that the development pathways for coaches are as poor as those for players when compared to New Zealand in particular. I'm not 100% up on The Championship in England, but a lot of the established names that come to mind as Championship coaches now or in recent times aren't from England. Cornish Pirates just down the road from me have an English coach (albeit in joint charge with a Welshman) in charge, I suspect that I'm forgetting someone who may have been English, but to my recollection, the last time they had an Englishman in charge was Peter Johnson mach in the late 1990s / early 2000s!

My impression is that Wales are a lot better at England at producing coaches, but not very good at keeping them in the country (down to money I guess). There have been a good few pass through Pirates ranks and quite a few (Clive Griffith at Doncaster and Mike Rayer) who were or still are well respected within the league.