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England and the game a match not currently made in heaven

  • Thread starter cheesed off england fan
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Mar 7 2010, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
He never was a decent player[/b]
Click to expand...

How can you say that?? He's a world cup winner and runner up, plus one of all time leading pts scorer. Guess he must have been doing some things right.
 
He's a kicking fly half who's been around for a million years (who happend to spend the early part of his international career behind the most dominant pack of recent history)... Shock, horror if he's got a lot of points.

He's also never got a backline going, has no rugby sense, panics under pressure and lives off the credit of the great players who carried him... The likes of Hill and Back protecting him, Dawson making the sniping runs which put him in space for those DGs or miss passes to the centres, Greenwood & Catt to direct the play then Robinson, Lewsey & Cohen who in their prime could score at their own leasure.

All those people played to make Wilkinson look good. Then the tabloids paint Wilkinson as thosugh he's David f***ing Beckham and suddenly the idiots who know nothing about the sport think he's worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Mehertens, Spencer, Carter, Michelak, Burke or Montgomery... That would be if they had a clue who any of those players are.

Note; At Newcastle, Flood carried Wilkinson the same way as Greenwood carried him for England.
 
So yes maybe he does need a bit of nurturing by players around him, but it does'nt make him a bad footballer. Just his game the way it is. I agree he's not at the standard of the tens you've mentioned but he's still a good weapon to have.
 
The whole point there that he IS a bad footballer. His pass is arse, he doesn't know what to do, he has barely a 70% accuracy record from the boot and on the off chance that England get good ball, he can't even kick it away well.

Give me Andy Goode ahead of Wilkinson any day.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The All Whites @ Mar 7 2010, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
So yes maybe he does need a bit of nurturing by players around him, but it does'nt make him a bad footballer. Just his game the way it is. I agree he's not at the standard of the tens you've mentioned but he's still a good weapon to have.[/b]
Click to expand...
He shouldn't need the nurturing though, he should be able to play his own game.
It's one of the reasons alot of people dislike O'Gara, he can't tackle so he needs one of the backrow there to babysit him. Wilkinson needs the 9/12 there to help him, which will take away from their own game
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Mar 7 2010, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The whole point there that he IS a bad footballer. His pass is arse, he doesn't know what to do, he has barely a 70% accuracy record from the boot and on the off chance that England get good ball, he can't even kick it away well.

Give me Andy Goode ahead of Wilkinson any day.[/b]
Click to expand...

Off topic but what a lovely time Goode is having at the Sharks! Two yellows in two games. :bravo:
 
Ah a New Zealanders perspective always interesting. Justing takin a look at your list. Wilkinson was a world class stand off, not now, now he is has been and it is showing. Yes their are greats who dont need people outside them to help but in the list you have come up with lets see who was outiside and inside of them. Mehertens had Justin Marshall one side and Aaron Mauger outside him. Spencer was the same. Let us not forget Michelak blowing the semi final and he has never really recovered a spell at the sharks seemd to have improved him but still never really achieved his full potential. Perhaps it will come to the detrimant of New Zealand in 2011, I wont hold my breath. Burke and Montgomery are by trade fullbacks they have played at outside half on a few occasions but never with great success. If you must use them you need to compare them to Christian Cullen, Jason Robinson and Blanco, I am afraid this lot are simply better. The only one you have mentioned who is simply sintilating on his day without the help of world class players around him is Carter. He will enter the record books along side names such as Bennet, Barry John, Fox, Lyner and I am afraid Wilkinson. Yes he is not the best with ball in hand when like all the others Carter excluded he has talent around him he was one of the best. In that WRC it was his brake that setup the English try and it wasnt a bad pass as I seem to remember. The other thing you need to remember is that New Zealand for all there talent have one the World cup the exact same number of times as England once!!!! The difference is a stark one, New Zealand won it on home soil, England won it in Australia on the same ground where 8 years earlier they had been thrashed. You see when you start to compare things it is difficult and they can be made to look anyway you wish. England have actually reached more world cup finals than New Zealand its 3 to 2. If the game of rugby stopped now and dissappeared, historians would look back and go Australia were the best followed by South Africa followed by England then New Zealand, strange isnt it. Yet if you asked anyone who watched they would say New Zealand were the best team through time. The point is the same for players. Slap Wilkinson now but he is the all time World cup points record holder and at the time a World Class operator at 10. Wilkinson will enter the hall of fame if there was one before Michilak, Montgomery, Burke, Merhtens and Spencer. Lest we forget Mehrtens missing a drop goal in 1995! Did he Choke does that make him as good as Wilkinson? not the other way round. Unfortunately now Wilkinson is past it and probably should not be playing at 10 for England, will Carter surpass him in these stakes, that depends on a lot of things. Is Carter a better balanced fly half than Wilkinson? Yes, were the others; that one you could debate. With the players inside and outside of the players on that list a blind man playing 10 could look good. Can we get backl to the original point of this thread the current state of England and no bl*&dy way should Flood be at 10, the unfortunate fact is that our most precosiuos talent is dissappearing to Melbourne, yes he has been poor but you cant deny the talent is there, possibly the only one in the world who can do the same things Dan Carter does. So pick the second best Geraghty, if not him Myler anybody but Flood please. Unfortuantely Johnson in my view needs to go, even more unfortunately he wont.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cheesed off england fan @ Mar 7 2010, 09:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Ah a New Zealanders perspective always interesting. Justing takin a look at your list. Wilkinson was a world class stand off, not now, now he is has been and it is showing. Yes their are greats who dont need people outside them to help but in the list you have come up with lets see who was outiside and inside of them. Mehertens had Justin Marshall one side and Aaron Mauger outside him. Spencer was the same. Let us not forget Michelak blowing the semi final and he has never really recovered a spell at the sharks seemd to have improved him but still never really achieved his full potential. Perhaps it will come to the detrimant of New Zealand in 2011, I wont hold my breath. Burke and Montgomery are by trade fullbacks they have played at outside half on a few occasions but never with great success. If you must use them you need to compare them to Christian Cullen, Jason Robinson and Blanco, I am afraid this lot are simply better. The only one you have mentioned who is simply sintilating on his day without the help of world class players around him is Carter. He will enter the record books along side names such as Bennet, Barry John, Fox, Lyner and I am afraid Wilkinson. Yes he is not the best with ball in hand when like all the others Carter excluded he has talent around him he was one of the best. In that WRC it was his brake that setup the English try and it wasnt a bad pass as I seem to remember. The other thing you need to remember is that New Zealand for all there talent have one the World cup the exact same number of times as England once!!!! The difference is a stark one, New Zealand won it on home soil, England won it in Australia on the same ground where 8 years earlier they had been thrashed. You see when you start to compare things it is difficult and they can be made to look anyway you wish. England have actually reached more world cup finals than New Zealand its 3 to 2. If the game of rugby stopped now and dissappeared, historians would look back and go Australia were the best followed by South Africa followed by England then New Zealand, strange isnt it. Yet if you asked anyone who watched they would say New Zealand were the best team through time. The point is the same for players. Slap Wilkinson now but he is the all time World cup points record holder and at the time a World Class operator at 10. Wilkinson will enter the hall of fame if there was one before Michilak, Montgomery, Burke, Merhtens and Spencer. Lest we forget Mehrtens missing a drop goal in 1995! Did he Choke does that make him as good as Wilkinson? not the other way round. Unfortunately now Wilkinson is past it and probably should not be playing at 10 for England, will Carter surpass him in these stakes, that depends on a lot of things. Is Carter a better balanced fly half than Wilkinson? Yes, were the others; that one you could debate. With the players inside and outside of the players on that list a blind man playing 10 could look good. Can we get backl to the original point of this thread the current state of England and no bl*&dy way should Flood be at 10, the unfortunate fact is that our most precosiuos talent is dissappearing to Melbourne, yes he has been poor but you cant deny the talent is there, possibly the only one in the world who can do the same things Dan Carter does. So pick the second best Geraghty, if not him Myler anybody but Flood please. Unfortuantely Johnson in my view needs to go, even more unfortunately he wont.[/b]
Click to expand...

My eyes hurt just looking at that.
 
Verbal Diarohea and a point to make. If only I could spell correctly lol :lol:
 
Maybe after a few more weeks on here, mr cheesed off will learn not to start mentioning English world cup success. That kind of talk belongs on 606.

However, I'm just as cheesed off, because we as a country have more resources than anyone else, and over the past 5 years we've consistently thrown them down the toilet. I spent the first 15 years of my life supporting an England team that, on the whole, achieved its potential and was one of the dominant forces in world rugby. Unlike the Irish and Welsh, who have limited resources and must wait for a coincidence of talent to come together for their teams to be successful, England have a constant conveyor belt that they are mismanaging and wasting.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cheesed off england fan @ Mar 8 2010, 10:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Ah a New Zealanders perspective always interesting. Justing takin a look at your list. Wilkinson was a world class stand off, not now, now he is has been and it is showing. Yes their are greats who dont need people outside them to help but in the list you have come up with lets see who was outiside and inside of them.

Mehertens had Justin Marshall one side and Aaron Mauger outside him. Spencer was the same. Let us not forget Michelak blowing the semi final and he has never really recovered a spell at the sharks seemd to have improved him but still never really achieved his full potential. Perhaps it will come to the detrimant of New Zealand in 2011, I wont hold my breath.

Burke and Montgomery are by trade fullbacks they have played at outside half on a few occasions but never with great success. If you must use them you need to compare them to Christian Cullen, Jason Robinson and Blanco, I am afraid this lot are simply better. The only one you have mentioned who is simply sintilating on his day without the help of world class players around him is Carter. He will enter the record books along side names such as Bennet, Barry John, Fox, Lyner and I am afraid Wilkinson. Yes he is not the best with ball in hand when like all the others Carter excluded he has talent around him he was one of the best.

In that WRC it was his brake that setup the English try and it wasnt a bad pass as I seem to remember. The other thing you need to remember is that New Zealand for all there talent have one the World cup the exact same number of times as, England once!!!! The difference is a stark one, New Zealand won it on home soil, England won it in Australia on the same ground where 8 years earlier they had been thrashed. You see when you start to compare things it is difficult and they can be made to look anyway you wish. England have actually reached more world cup finals than New Zealand its 3 to 2. If the game of rugby stopped now and dissappeared, historians would look back and go Australia were the best followed by South Africa followed by England then New Zealand, strange isnt it(questions, even rhetorical ones, should have question marks). Yet if you asked anyone who watched they would say New Zealand were the best team through time. The point is the same for players. Slap Wilkinson now but he is the all time World cup points record holder and at the time a World Class operator at 10. Wilkinson will enter the hall of fame if there was one before Michilak, Montgomery, Burke, Merhtens and Spencer. Lest we forget Mehrtens missing a drop goal in 1995! Did he Choke does that make him as good as Wilkinson? not the other way round. Unfortunately now Wilkinson is past it and probably should not be playing at 10 for England, will Carter surpass him in these stakes, that depends on a lot of things. Is Carter a better balanced fly half than Wilkinson? Yes, were the others; that one you could debate. With the players inside and outside of the players on that list a blind man playing 10 could look good.

Can we get backl to the original point of this thread the current state of England and no bl*&dy way should Flood be at 10, the unfortunate fact is that our most precosiuos talent is dissappearing to Melbourne, yes he has been poor but you cant deny the talent is there, possibly the only one in the world who can do the same things Dan Carter does. So pick the second best, Geraghty, if not him Myler anybody but Flood please. Unfortuantely Johnson in my view needs to go, even more unfortunately he wont.[/b]
Click to expand...
...
Just a few mistakes in that post...

1.Mite is English. So that diotribe was a little wasted.
2.I hate to comment on gramma etc, but that was one of the worst put together posts I've ever seen.
3. Mehrtens was better then Fox. Marhsall was no doubt a help but he was amazing on his own as well. Through the All Blacks most caps he earned didn't have Mauger outside him.
4.Why would an Historian only focus on the World Cup? Why not winning statistics? And why would Australia be ahead of South Africa if it did go by the world cup? South Africa have won half the world cups they entered.
5.Spencer was best when he had Carter outside of him. He had Devine in the Blues, so he hardly got helf at scrum half.
6.It's the RWC not WRC
7.Mehrtens was/is better then Wilkinson.
8.Don't compare Cipriani to Dan Carter.
 
Mites flag identifies him as a kiwi deos it not? I think someone else also commented on that. Oh yes my grammar is poor on the forum, spend to much time making sure reports are top notch cant be arse on here. Just to pick up on something it should a historian not an historian. But who cares. In fact you could find a lot worse if you look at other forums. never said Mehrtens was better than Fox! The reason they would focus most on Owrld cups as its the most evident and a natural place to start. however wikipedia may still be around so the New Zealand may get the recognicition they deserve. Actually Australia would be ahead of South Africa, the reason they have won it more times. The reader would then ask well why were South Africa not involved in earlier ones, we dont need to open up that can of worms. Spencer was and still is a mecurial talent nice to see him playing in S14 again. I got the chance to see him play for Northampton a few seasons ago, he just seemed to have a natural head for the game. It is a shame he couldnt kick otherwise Mehrtens may have struggled to keep his place.
Forgive me it should be RWC not WRC silly mistake. That point about Mehrtens being better than Wilkinson, statiscally not true, in reality either or at that time in that era. Neither compare to Carter. If I choose to compare Carter to Cipriani I will, would you object if I compared Giteau to Carter or would that be to much? Perhaps I should simply say Carter greatest no one compares, or perhaps I should actually have an opinion on where someones potential may take them. After all as you probably no there is a very talented youngster at Canterbury who has already been compared to Carter. If he is the greatest at present then he is the yard stick you compare anybody else to. Could we get back to original point of the post which was pick your England side? By the way its nice to see England have made some changes for the game against Scotland lol.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cheesed off england fan @ Mar 9 2010, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Mites flag identifies him as a kiwi deos it not? I think someone else also commented on that. Oh yes my grammar is poor on the forum, spend to much time making sure reports are top notch cant be arse on here. Just to pick up on something it should a historian not an historian. But who cares. In fact you could find a lot worse if you look at other forums. never said Mehrtens was better than Fox! The reason they would focus most on Owrld cups as its the most evident and a natural place to start. however wikipedia may still be around so the New Zealand may get the recognicition they deserve. Actually Australia would be ahead of South Africa, the reason they have won it more times. The reader would then ask well why were South Africa not involved in earlier ones, we dont need to open up that can of worms. Spencer was and still is a mecurial talent nice to see him playing in S14 again. I got the chance to see him play for Northampton a few seasons ago, he just seemed to have a natural head for the game. It is a shame he couldnt kick otherwise Mehrtens may have struggled to keep his place.
Forgive me it should be RWC not WRC silly mistake. That point about Mehrtens being better than Wilkinson, statiscally not true, in reality either or at that time in that era. Neither compare to Carter. If I choose to compare Carter to Cipriani I will, would you object if I compared Giteau to Carter or would that be to much? Perhaps I should simply say Carter greatest no one compares, or perhaps I should actually have an opinion on where someones potential may take them. After all as you probably no there is a very talented youngster at Canterbury who has already been compared to Carter. If he is the greatest at present then he is the yard stick you compare anybody else to. Could we get back to original point of the post which was pick your England side? By the way its nice to see England have made some changes for the game against Scotland lol.[/b]
Click to expand...

Ummm...I'm pretty sure an historian is right actually. :wacko:
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Mar 8 2010, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
8.Don't compare Cipriani to Dan Carter.[/b]
Click to expand...

Danny Cipriani:

Pros:
1. Wears a scrum cap
2. Has a better looking girlfriend.
3. Has a better haircut and better haircut endurance (again see scrumcap point)

Cons:
1. Looks a bit weedy.
2. Lips look like they've been borrowed from Kim Bassinger.
3. Not very good at this rugby thing-a-mah-jig

Dan Carter:

Pros:
1. Meatwagon.
2. Is pretty good a rugby truth be told.
3. Has that killer colgate smile *zing*

Cons:
1. Meatwagon.
2. Does he even have a girlfriend?
3. Hair always looks flat.
4. Looks/sounds pretty boring, would be pretty rubbish on a Stag night.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rocket Singh @ Mar 9 2010, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Mar 8 2010, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Click to expand...
8.Don't compare Cipriani to Dan Carter.[/b]
Click to expand...

Danny Cipriani:

Pros:
1. Wears a scrum cap
2. Has a better looking girlfriend.
3. Has a better haircut and better haircut endurance (again see scrumcap point)

Cons:
1. Looks a bit weedy.
2. Lips look like they've been borrowed from Kim Bassinger.
3. Not very good at this rugby thing-a-mah-jig

Dan Carter:

Pros:
1. Meatwagon.
2. Is pretty good a rugby truth be told.
3. Has that killer colgate smile *zing*

Cons:
1. Meatwagon.
2. Does he even have a girlfriend?
3. Hair always looks flat.
4. Looks/sounds pretty boring, would be pretty rubbish on a Stag night.
[/b][/quote]
You say Ciprianis scrumcap is a pro, but surely it could be a con as well?
You say Carters got flat hair: No matter how much you style your hair, a scrumcap is going to flatten it down!
 

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