England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Vieux Talonneur]

Let's enjoy the Slam, but it won't be long before the team starts to undergo wholesale surgery.

Arguably our two best props were on the bench today.

Hartley deserves to stay for a while, but both George and LCD will only improve.

Kruis and Launch sounds pretty good. Who knows, Lawes may rediscover his mojo.

Itoje to 6 feels like a no brainer. Binny's earned the shirt, but will come under huge pressure from Hughes. At 7 Clifford maybe, but for me Underhill is more likely to nail it.

Tonight summed up the 9 conundrum nicely. One or the other in the match day squad with Robson to get some bench time.

As for 10, I think Ford's only had the shirt as Farrell's had to play 12. Slade for the long term.

Manu to 12 with JJ outside. Daly will be pushing hard.

Brown's done at this level. Watson to 15 with May and Lewington on the wings.

Some of these can start to be fed through in Australia.

 

[Belvedere]

Well done Englishers, England were the best side in the tourney and deserved the Slam.

I know how it feels to Grand Slam after long periods of failure. I'd never seen a pub full of men crying before 2005 and I doubt I will again.

Some Welsh observations for you:

1. It's a travesty that the Vinopula brothers play for you considering we nurtured them from babby's (they are basically world class quislings)

2. Watching you guys play, it seems Edie has struck the right balance between coaching a game plan and empowering the team to play what is in front of them (Gatland take note)

3. Itoje made a big difference to your game. I think he is among a new generation of second row forwards that don't just do the lanky stuff well but are also able to act as extra back row forwards due to a widened skill-set and supreme fitness levels. The fact that you managed to keep him out of the waiting arms of the Nigerian Rugby Union is most disappointing.

4. You are still at 6's and 7's with your 6's and 7's, and apart from some workman like stuff from Robshaw, to reach the next level Eddie has to find a really formidable back row unit to kick on from here.

5. It will be harder for you next year when France improve, Ireland recover from injuries and Wales (hopefully) stop fannying about and play some rugby.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Harder for us unless we improve by more than they do. England have been more consistant than Ireland or Wales over the last 5 years and this year managed that final step to get the grand slam, it's been a long time coming and it would be dishonest to say this came out of the blue. England have been so close for so long, I don't see how anyone could really be all that suprised.

 

[Peat]

Better perhaps to say England's performance levels will have to improve if we want to win a GS next year.

 

[JJFlash]

Eddie has to address the big problem of penalties conceded - I don't know how many there were yesterday as I've not seen the stats, but all France's points were penalty offences and gawd knows how many others in non-kickable parts of the field.
The set scrum is also a concern as the Frogs had the upper hand generally.
However, to steal so much of their lineout ball and the number of turnovers were big pluses.
New players will undoubtedly come in for the summer tour and will hopefully cement their places in a new squad for the AIs.

 

[Colombia]

Let's enjoy the Slam, but it won't be long before the team starts to undergo wholesale surgery.

England fans really are the worst for this, worst armchair selectors ever. They want to break up a winning team after winning the GS for only the 13th time in over 100 years. :lol:

 

[petetherhooker]

End of term report

Front row.

Sadly Cole is coming to an end. Too many penalties, losing power in the scrum.
hartley - tick vg
Vunipola. WHY????? He can't prop up a scrum, which is a bit of a problem for a prop. Found out on the Lions tour, found out in the first scrum yesterday. Marler better, but please God mend Corbs

Second Row

the main area of strength, to have four locks of this standard is fabulous

Back row

oh dear, we haven't got one. One great ball carrier with a meat head on either side. Needs the X factor at the breakdown.

Scrum half

dont understand the hatred of Youngs. Care and Youngs are both flawed, Care nearly gave the game away with poor box kicking, but scored a try. BY also created a try. Persist with both until there is a more complete alternative

fly half

Ford is at the cross roads. Either he goes back to Bath and recovers form, or he's the latest in a long line of talented but doesn't quite cut the mustard.

centre

farrell ain't a centre, needs to go back to 10 while(if) Ford recovers. Also with Farrell at 10 I don't need to worry every time someone over 10stone runs down the channel. Should be an area of strength with Manu, Joseph, Slade, Daly

back 3

Again don't understand hatred of brown. Attitude should be thank you to a fine servant, but time to move on. Watson and Nowell did well although the latter worries me. I've played with a good few headless chicken wingers who leave you behind where you started

 

[JJFlash]

England fans really are the worst for this, worst armchair selectors ever. They want to break up a winning team after winning the GS for only the 13th time in over 100 years. :lol:

I would suggest they are no worse than any other country's supporters.
It is very healthy for the game to have younger players coming through the ranks and be given the opportunities to show what they can do at international level.
No team can rest on their laurels having won a tournament and not look towards the future.

 

[Colombia]

Everything's perfect. Haskell will be dropped. Thread close please.

Haskell won't be dropped, and he will finish as England's most capped backrow player of all time (currently 16 caps shy). Fans are clueless but successive England coaches understand his value.

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I would suggest they are no worse than any other country's supporters.
It is very healthy for the game to have younger players coming through the ranks and be given the opportunities to show what they can do at international level.
No team can rest on their laurels having won a tournament and not look towards the future.

When other countries win the Grand Slam, they are the toast of the nation, heroes all. When England wins, misguided armchair selectors want to replace bunch of GS champion players with a series of unproven players. Laughable.

 

[petetherhooker]

Haskell won't be dropped, and he will finish as England's most capped backrow player of all time (currently 16 caps shy). Fans are clueless but successive England coaches understand his value.

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When other countries win the Grand Slam, they are the toast of the nation, heroes all. When England wins, misguided armchair selectors want to replace bunch of GS champion players with a series of unproven players. Laughable.

That at is so true, the most showing sign of English arrogance is our constant self criticism and doubt.

Its also nice to see that English aarogance has been eliminated by a good old plain speaking Aussie who says "We're going to win"

 

[JJFlash]

. When England wins, misguided armchair selectors want to replace bunch of GS champion players with a series of unproven players. Laughable.

Who are these unproven players?
Also, every player who plays in his first game for his country is "unproven" at international level.
Martin Johnson, for instance, won his first cap, I believe, as a last minute replacement against France at Twickenham. Sure, he was unproven, and he then went on to be an all time great.
Lastly, there will always be, as you call them, the "misguided armchair selectors", but they, I can assure you, remain in the minority.

 

[Zed]

End of term report

back 3

Again don't understand hatred of brown. Attitude should be thank you to a fine servant, but time to move on. Watson and Nowell did well although the latter worries me. I've played with a good few headless chicken wingers who leave you behind where you started

I love watching high class rugby players at the top of their game, irrespective of nationality, Cullen, North, Carlos Spencer, Jason Robinson etc etc So I tuned in to a few England games to watch Brown play as I had read in the British press he was being mooted as the best fullback in the world. But in 2 - 3 years I haven't seen anything, but a good solid reliable player. He catches the ball, makes his tackles, finishes off tries OK, but that's it. He is not in the same league as the likes of Robinson, Cullen or Folau. So perhaps people are hating on him because he doesn't live up to the massive expectation put upon him by the worlds media. If England have aspirations to be No 1, he needs to go. Harsh as he's not a bad player, but he doesn't have the potency to play 15 at international level.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think Eddie Jones will make a few tweaks to the team but nothing too major. He said himself he is looking for a 7 so we will see if he kind find a decent one. I think Clifford could do a very good job there at the moment though which leaves Haskell and to share to battle it out for the 6 shirt at the moment.

Front row defiantly needs a bit of work. But we have great players so he has choices.

The main problem has and always will be the 10 12 13 channel. I don't see how Eddie can see Manu and Slade as possible 12s as they are so different. Unless he intends to change the style of play?

But then who is their back up. Very interesting to see what he does here when he's got more time to work with a fully fit squad.

 

[TommiG88]

I would look to the summer and have rid of ford and brown mainly.

I feel our countering attack falls down as soon as his mits get on the ball. He's blinkered and selfish at times. I have no idea who to replace him with: Watson or Nowell and give May and wade another go?

Ford has zero confidence in his ability right now.

I would like to see the back of robshaw as I think Haskell is just an ounce better than him. Give Clifford, ewers and underhill a shot.

Cole is looking ragged at times, I would bench him with Brookes starting.

Hartley had a blinder of a tournament, came in with little game time and not being at his peak, but played exceptionally. The odd missed tackle, but he was close to his best.

Itoje has to stay in the 2nd row, he's a modern lock. He may have all the attributes for a 6, however the game has moved on and he can fulfil the role of a lock brilliantly. The other position is a toss up between Kruis and launchbury, whoever is on form at the time maybe.

Billy has nailed down the 8 shirt. Only Hughes will challenge him for that from now on.

Scrum half is difficult. Not too bad, but nothing amazing.

Looking forward to seeing Slade fit for the summer.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Eddie has to address the big problem of penalties conceded

Switching out Cole and Haskell would do wonders here

 

[Jakedood]

I may be completely wrong here but I actually am seeing glimpses of Ford at his best, especially yesterday where he took the ball to the line a few times and made some beautifully timed pop passes to the runners. However what I don't think helps is farewell for various reasons. Minor reasons involve the lack of leadership he has, farrell being VC and all too, and as a 10 he's used to being the general and organising the line, calling the shots. And that's his strength, he makes everybody else in the backs look better while not always doing the flashy stuff himself. That's my view of what a good 10 does.

As well as this though, one of his greatest strengths is taking the ball to the line and making defenders make split second decisions as to who to tackle with me running lines off him while he's under their nose! However with farrell he doesn't have the same threat here as even burrell gave, and that really hinders him in terms of how his strengths manifest on the game.

Still a point to note has been some really really impressive out of hand kicking, his up and understanding are exquisite!

 

[ratsapprentice]

England fans really are the worst for this, worst armchair selectors ever. They want to break up a winning team after winning the GS for only the 13th time in over 100 years. :lol:

Speaking for myself - wholesale changes would be foolish. But a continuation of what Eddie has done already in this tournament is exactly what's needed.

I disagree on Haskell - what he's done this tournament is valuable. As a guy who played as a 4/6, I completely understand the value of people who just hit rucks and tackle hard - but the fact remains that we have guys who look to be capable of doing exactly what Haskell has done, and more, to a higher level.

What Haskell did in the tournament is basically the minimum that a country like England should expect of a blindside. We should be looking to improve upon that.

It will be very interesting to see who loses out when Eddie brings in the openside he's stated he will.

 

[Hulkster]

Jones was on the radio this morning. Asked which England players would make a world XV.

He said Cole, Billy V and either one of the locks. Said Cole has got back the level of being the best tighthead in the world.

Looks like Cole is here to stay and Brookes is going to be waiting a while for his chance, even from the bench hes reluctant to give him a go.

 

[Zed]

I think Eddie Jones will make a few tweaks to the team but nothing too major. He said himself he is looking for a 7 so we will see if he kind find a decent one. I think Clifford could do a very good job there at the moment though which leaves Haskell and to share to battle it out for the 6 shirt at the moment.

Front row defiantly needs a bit of work. But we have great players so he has choices.

The main problem has and always will be the 10 12 13 channel. I don't see how Eddie can see Manu and Slade as possible 12s as they are so different. Unless he intends to change the style of play?

But then who is their back up. Very interesting to see what he does here when he's got more time to work with a fully fit squad.

I'd go for Tuilagi at 13. If he's running down the 10/12 channel, he'll be hitting big back rowers, he'll be more effective out wide, plus he seems to be a bit injury prone. But then what if there are no decent 12s knocking about?

 

[msf]

Let's enjoy the Slam, but it won't be long before the team starts to undergo wholesale surgery.

Arguably our two best props were on the bench today.

Hartley deserves to stay for a while, but both George and LCD will only improve.

Kruis and Launch sounds pretty good. Who knows, Lawes may rediscover his mojo.

Itoje to 6 feels like a no brainer. Binny's earned the shirt, but will come under huge pressure from Hughes. At 7 Clifford maybe, but for me Underhill is more likely to nail it.

Tonight summed up the 9 conundrum nicely. One or the other in the match day squad with Robson to get some bench time.

As for 10, I think Ford's only had the shirt as Farrell's had to play 12. Slade for the long term.

Manu to 12 with JJ outside. Daly will be pushing hard.

Brown's done at this level. Watson to 15 with May and Lewington on the wings.

Some of these can start to be fed through in Australia.

So I came on here to have my say and found that someone had already said it for me! I agree with almost all of that, with the following exceptions...I think Cole is going to take a lot of shifting, he is back to his best and has even developed a carrying game (he could have had 2 tries in 2 matches!). I think long-term Hill is more likely to replace him than Brookes, as he brings an athleticism that neither of the other two possess, but this might not happen before the 2019 World Cup.

Re: lock, at the moment we have two grafting locks (Launchbury and Kruis) and two athletic locks (Lawes and Itoje). Kruis is nailed-on at the moment because he is the only one Borthwick trusts to run the lineout (and with good reason). However, Jones has talked about finding a back-up (and possible replacement) for Kruis. You would think that Lawes should be able to do this, since he now has Borthwick coaching the England line out and Matfield (presumably) coaching the Northampton one. To get picked above the other three he is going to have to improve his work rate though. The ideal combo for me would be Launchbury and Lawes (if he can learn to call the line out as well as Kruis) with Itoje at 6. Kruis is an excellent player, but he doesn´t have the handling skills or support play of Launchbury, who also has a very high work rate.

I agree about Underhill being the most likely replacement for Haskell - on the available evidence, he does everything Haskell does, and can also link play. He should be able to learn to jackle better too. I think Hughes will eventually replace Vunipola, as he is able to do the hard yards AND carry in the wide channels.

I totally agree about the 9. If Eddie Jones can get either Care or Youngs to get rid of their flaws then he really will be worth his salary! Whether this happens before he loses patience with them is the question. Robson seems to be the most complete young pretender, but Chudley and Simpson surely must be given a chance before him (I think Chudley has the best all-round game, but he doesn´t have the explosive pace that the others possess).

Disagree about the 10. I think Jones has already made it clear that Ford is his long-term candidate for 10, even if he loses out to Farrell in the short-term (which I don´t think he will).

I don´t think he will play Tuilagi and Joseph together much either. There needs to be a ball player in there at 13, either Daly or Slade (whoever can learn to defend as well as Joseph at 13).

I agree about Watson being the long-term candidate for full back, but I don´t think Lewington will come in on the wing. I think Nowell will continue there until Wade learns to defend better (although he wouldn´t have to defend that much better on last night´s evidence to replace Nowell). At the moment you wouldn´t back either of them against the best in the world. It doesn´t help that they are up against left wingers who are much bigger than them. I think Watson would be able to deal with Savea, etc. better physically, but we need him at full back (unless Swiel eventually comes through at 15). May on the left wing until we can tempt Joe Burgess to come across from league (this might not happen before 2019 either).

I don´t think we will see many changes for the first game against Australia. I don´t think Manu will be rushed back in, for several reasons: first, he is still learning how to play 12, second, I believe Jones wants to keep Ford at 10 and Farrell as first-choice kicker; third, we are playing Australia, not SA or NZ, and there is less of a need for physicality in the back line.