England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Devoto guessing will be 10/12 off the bench?

 

[Which Tyler]

12/13 surely.
especially with both Farrell and Ford in the 23, he really won't be needed to play 10; besides he's far more comfortable at OC than FH.

Out of interest, IIRC Devoto's longest run of matches for Bath would have been this time last year; out of position at 10 and seeing the ruination of his confidence (bloody Henson! - was supposed to be our FH cover, but decided he'd be injured until making that miraculous recovery on arrival at Bristol)

 

[Every Time Ref]

12/13 surely.
especially with both Farrell and Ford in the 23, he really won't be needed to play 10; besides he's far more comfortable at OC than FH.

Out of interest, IIRC Devoto's longest run of matches for Bath would have been this time last year; out of position at 10 and seeing the ruination of his confidence (bloody Henson! - was supposed to be our FH cover, but decided he'd be injured until making that miraculous recovery on arrival at Bristol)

If someone's campaign plan is predicated on Henson acting like a decent human being I'd suggest that person is a fool!

Agree he isn't covering ten, assume both centre berths. Not a natural 13 in my opinion but much better than at 10.

 

[Tony Manx]

I don't want him near an England shirt this year. I want him to have a whole pre season off otherwise I fear he won't be over his injury.

Common sense is breaking out all over the place!!! Hurray!!!!

(Sorry if the exclamation marks are deemed to mean I am shouting!!!!!!!)

 

[LUKE12]

Why is suddenly no one considering Sam Hill, is he injured?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Why is suddenly no one considering Sam Hill, is he injured?

He was released.

 

[Peat]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-out-for-two-weeks-with-hamstring-injury.html

Does not this mean to most people that, realistically, he should be forgotten about completely until at least the summer tour and only then considered if he has a real number of matches in succession under his belt?

I'd take my decision on him week by week in consultation with the medical staff. He's too valuable to take big risks on, but equally too valuable not to play when there - this could just be him pushing too hard now he's fit but no big deal, or it could be due to the groin injury and a sign he's definitely not ready. Up to a doctor that one.

I certainly can't see him taking part until rounds 4 and 5 by the earliest though. If he comes back from this and plays 3 games for Leicester and is absolutely fine and the doctors say he's good to go? I'd consider picking him.

 

[Tony Manx]

I'd take my decision on him week by week in consultation with the medical staff. He's too valuable to take big risks on, but equally too valuable not to play when there - this could just be him pushing too hard now he's fit but no big deal, or it could be due to the groin injury and a sign he's definitely not ready. Up to a doctor that one.

I certainly can't see him taking part until rounds 4 and 5 by the earliest though. If he comes back from this and plays 3 games for Leicester and is absolutely fine and the doctors say he's good to go? I'd consider picking him.

If it is an independent Doctor I might go with you but not a club Doctor - see Sexton!

Besides he is not that much of a world class stand out player who the English team have to select until he shows he is fit, up to speed and where he was before the multitudinous injuries over the last 24 months......that is two years!!!

 

[Peat]

If it is an independent Doctor I might go with you but not a club Doctor - see Sexton!

Besides he is not that much of a world class stand out player who the English team have to select until he shows he is fit, up to speed and where he was before the multitudinous injuries over the last 24 months......that is two years!!!

Personally I think Leicester's doctor would give an even more conservative estimate of when he's ready for England duty than any independent would.

And disagreed over his quality. His presence would improve England markedly.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Leicester are not keen to rush him.

He is still very young and Tigers are playing things safe with him.

Cockers was pretty ****** off England selected him in the first place.

Wouldn't be surprised if this was to cool down England looking at him this six nations.

 

[Peat]

Being selected for the squad isn't the same as being selected for the team. Imo, Tuilagi *had* to be there - even if he just rocks up for two days a week to watch the contact drills, listen to Jones, do some non-contact moves and then is released back to Leicester. He's too important a part of the ideal England team not to be counted in from the beginning. I appreciate it raises the possibility of him being rushed back for England I don't know what, if anything, Jones was saying to Cockerill about it, but him being in the squad ain't wrong per se.

And, correct me if wrong, but wasn't Tuilagi back in training for over a month before Leicester decided to risk him? Can't complain about that level of caution.

 

[Tony Manx]

Being selected for the squad isn't the same as being selected for the team. Imo, Tuilagi *had* to be there - even if he just rocks up for two days a week to watch the contact drills, listen to Jones, do some non-contact moves and then is released back to Leicester. He's too important a part of the ideal England team not to be counted in from the beginning. I appreciate it raises the possibility of him being rushed back for England I don't know what, if anything, Jones was saying to Cockerill about it, but him being in the squad ain't wrong per se.

And, correct me if wrong, but wasn't Tuilagi back in training for over a month before Leicester decided to risk him? Can't complain about that level of caution.

I suppose where we differ is the degree of importance he is to England!

When he matures into, and is as fit as, Nonu, (as is really possible with the right coaching), then I can see where you are coming from but he is nowhere near that class yet and is totally replaceable.........in my opinion!

 

[Peat]

I suppose where we differ is the degree of importance he is to England!

When he matures into, and is as fit as, Nonu, (as is really possible with the right coaching), then I can see where you are coming from but he is nowhere near that class yet and is totally replaceable.........in my opinion!

Who do you replace him with though? If you want an international centre who trades on power, then imo for England currently that's Tuilagi or no one. Burrell's not consistently good enough, Hill is not proven, everyone else ranks after those two. It's either play Tuilagi, play a centre partnership with no power, or play a centre partnership with a sub-international option.

I'm not certain I'm right to regard Tuilagi as World Class (not least because he's spent so much time out), but he is totally irreplaceable at the moment in my opinion.

Obviously I am very much hoping that Sam Hill (or Devoto I suppose, but less optimistic there) comes through and changes that.

 

[Tony Manx]

I do not believe that we need necessarily to have heavy centers who just try to bullock their way at the opposition per se.

To me there is more benefit in attacking space.....the likes of Bastereau and Jamie Roberts are well over rated and I would much prefer the skillful play of a centre like Jonathon Davies or Nonu who, as it happens, is big but with many deft touches! He passes, off loads, kicks well, sees the breaks and takes them!

At the moment MT is just like Jamie Roberts and attacks people who are adept at tackling!

Given the right coaching (and that he has a brain) he can become a Nonu and absolutely will then be first choice but hopefully not indispensable.....,

The thought that a team is built around one player is too shocking to contemplate as 22 other players have to change the way they play if that player is injured early on in the game or has a long term injury even!!

Finally, a player's rep always seems to be elevated when they are not playing particularly when the team is beaten. Let's see what his fitness and skills are truly consistently like after such a prolonged period out of the game before deeming him first choice and totally indispensable!

 

[Peat]

Aye but you didn't answer this part - if you want power, Tony, where else do you get it?

Fair enough if you disagree on how important it is, or how much Tuilagi looks for space, or whether he's still got it (had it from the looks of his first game back but that's just one game), but the crucial point of how important Manu is to England right now is the absence of alternatives. As long as that's still the case - and I don't know whether you agree on that - if you want a powerhouse centre, it's Tuilagi or a second-rater. And that's pretty much the definition of indispensable.


Personally, I think it's underestimated just how difficult it is to find worthwhile space if you're not threatening the opponent with the possibility of sending your big runner into one of the weaker defenders, trampling all over him, and getting straight over the gainline. I do not understand it when people debate between the choice of hammer or rapier - in pro rugby, it's have both, or get found out. Which is why I consider a powerhouse centre very close to a necessity. You can win without, but it's like having a hand tied behind your back. Like winning with a poor lineout. And, sure, it's best when the hammer can also act as a rapier, but that's not always possible (we certainly don't have one of those just yet).

And I think for a guy who just runs at people adept at making tackles, Tuilagi has an awful lot of defenders beaten in his stats. You mention Jiffy jnr - I looked at the stats of the two vs SANZAR a while back. Tuilagi's offensive stats compared to his were just off the chart. Sure, there's a lot of things that could be added to his game (although I think that's overstated too), but in terms of beating a man and making a break, Tuilagi is just horribly good and better than many a more subtle centre. Horribly good to the point where I consider him world class, even if his game is incomplete. Routinely shredding the best defences in rugby is enough of a party trick for me.


The main thing this argument hinges on for me though is our complete absence of other powerful international quality centres. We desperately need some.

 

[Tony Manx]

Aye but you didn't answer this part - if you want power, Tony, where else do you get it?

Fair enough if you disagree on how important it is, or how much Tuilagi looks for space, or whether he's still got it (had it from the looks of his first game back but that's just one game), but the crucial point of how important Manu is to England right now is the absence of alternatives. As long as that's still the case - and I don't know whether you agree on that - if you want a powerhouse centre, it's Tuilagi or a second-rater. And that's pretty much the definition of indispensable.


Personally, I think it's underestimated just how difficult it is to find worthwhile space if you're not threatening the opponent with the possibility of sending your big runner into one of the weaker defenders, trampling all over him, and getting straight over the gainline. I do not understand it when people debate between the choice of hammer or rapier - in pro rugby, it's have both, or get found out. Which is why I consider a powerhouse centre very close to a necessity. You can win without, but it's like having a hand tied behind your back. Like winning with a poor lineout. And, sure, it's best when the hammer can also act as a rapier, but that's not always possible (we certainly don't have one of those just yet).

And I think for a guy who just runs at people adept at making tackles, Tuilagi has an awful lot of defenders beaten in his stats. You mention Jiffy jnr - I looked at the stats of the two vs SANZAR a while back. Tuilagi's offensive stats compared to his were just off the chart. Sure, there's a lot of things that could be added to his game (although I think that's overstated too), but in terms of beating a man and making a break, Tuilagi is just horribly good and better than many a more subtle centre. Horribly good to the point where I consider him world class, even if his game is incomplete. Routinely shredding the best defences in rugby is enough of a party trick for me.


The main thing this argument hinges on for me though is our complete absence of other powerful international quality centres. We desperately need some.

Totally agree your last point! Of that there is absolutely no argument from me!!

 

[j'nuh]

It would be lovely to have a big powerful centre who makes breaks, defends well, distributes well, makes good lines etc. But Nonu is a once-in-a-generation kind of player.

For the rest of us non-NZ nations, it's a matter of how far up the pecking order of attributes "big powerful centre" goes. Wales, for example, put it pretty high. Roberts is the embodiment of being a big, physical centre. Unfortunately, playing him often means that North has scant work to do because Roberts is used to crash, crash and crash. What ball goes outside of Roberts stays with Davies.

Personally, I want to see Tuilagi back. In part because I've lost hope that we'll ever use our wingers effectively because England's ball handling and ball running skills just aren't there. But I can see a case for not including him.

The thing I'm worried about is that we'll see a lot less out of Tuilagi at 12, especially at international level, than at 13. Roberts doesn't make anywhere near the number of breaks that Tuilagi has in the past, and I feel that that's because there are fewer gaps at 12 to exploit. Wales use Roberts to set the tempo of the attack, hitting the gainline, rather than to punch holes. It would waste Tuilagi if we used him in the same way.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lawes needs to do the right thing and withdraw himself from the 23 so Itojie can come in.

 

[yaboyjj]

Lawes needs to do the right thing and withdraw himself from the 23 so Itojie can come in.

basically.. yeah.

Get Cole to do the same while you're at it- Brookes in.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

basically.. yeah.

Get Cole to do the same while you're at it- Brookes in.

Brookes isn't in consideration cause of injury (his first game in however long was yesterday).
Same as Manu wasnt in consideration (even before this newest injury).