England 2024/25

[Which Tyler]

Who do you get to replace him?

Michael Cheika - just to annoy any Leicester fans!
TBH, he wouldn't be a completely terrible option either

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Graham Rowntree

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think the best RFU move would be to promote SB and bring in a new head coach with experience.

It's a win win. New coach - check, SB saves face - check, RFu aren't sacking another coach - check, making England great again (lol) - check

 

[Rugbyfan564]

We could do a Wales and get EJ back

I think there is about a 0.00000001% chance of that.

 

[Saintjay]

SB is the best example of the Peter principal currently in international rugby.

Baxter, McCall probably don't want the gig. Vesty as attack coach but rather he stays at Saints. So no idea who tbh.

With are current players not sure even a Rassie and Farrell combo could make us world beaters.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Our players are plenty good enough, imo

I wouldn't want Baxter,
If I was looking at a Prem coach I'd look at JvG - think he'll probably head back to the Boks at some point though (I know he's locked into a really long deal at Bath but these days that just means they'll get a nice buyout fee)

There's always the calls for Edwards, but doubt he'd leave France - the RFU seem completely disinterested in him, too, considering he's said a few times he wants to coach England. Weird situation

Do wonder if the RFU are eyeing up Farrell for post RWC

 

[TommiG88]

I would love us to go after Edwards. I still surprised we didn't after Eddie!

I just don't look forward to England playing anymore and haven't for a while. Eddie starting dampening my spirits but Borthwick has stamped all over it. Couldn't care less for the SA or Japan game.

 

[IT157]

Matt Dawson says England were great for 65 minutes.

I'm not sure if he just means today.

In total this year.

 

[BMatt]

I haven't been part of the Borthwick out brigade because there has been progress, even if it's been long plateaus followed by two steps forward and one step back.

But yesterday was horrific. With all the coach turnover and looking at the CVs of some of the coaches (El-Abd, PD2 coach and former Borthwick housemate) I'm not confident they'll turn a group of excellent players into 6N champions, let alone WC winners.

Borthwick being appointed to England in 2023 was like Furbank starting against France in 2020. Right man, wrong time.

As an England fan I like Olyy's suggestion of JvG, but as a Bath fan he will have to fight me for him. I don't understand why the RFU didn't appoint an experienced head coach in the first place, so fundamentally the problem is at the top of the RFU rather than just with Borthwick.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Borthwick's main mistake has been to surround himself with inexperienced coaches. When he did bring in a couple with clout they walked. Probably tells you all you need to know.

Didn't think he was the man for the job, still don't.

But in recent months we've beaten Ire, lost away to Fra by 2, away twice to NZ by a combined total of 8 and now narrow defeats at home to both NZ again and Aus. We also came within a whisker of the RWC final. Ultimately it's all about results, but a lot of would haves, could haves and a few should haves in there. A couple of different bounces of the ball, some kicks that should have been nailed and things would be looking very different.

Of those, yesterday was the really disappointing one but we'll only really get context on where the Aussies are once they've played their other games.

The players also need to take some flak though. Particularly for not having the calmness or leadership to see through the final quarter. The first test in NZ and last week could both have been won by getting fairly straightforward goal kicks and drop goals…..those are 100% down to the players.

 

[Reiser99]

I'm in the Borthwick stay camp, purely because the RFU can't afford another mid cycle change and buying coaches out of contracts. I'm just writing off the next 3 years and hope we get Farrell after the 2027 WC.

 

[Abraxaz]

If we look at the results and who they are against, the argument could be made that England is no longer a tier 1 nation under Borthwick.

We rarely beat tier 1 teams. Other than the odd blip.

We struggle to win against tier 1.5, see Italy in six nations and the like of Fiji.

The only teams we comfortably win against is tier 2 countries.

We have Japan in two weeks, which might break our loosing streak. Then it's Ireland, France and Scotland teams we've historically struggled against and we are known to start tournaments off poorly.
We are playing wales, who we barely scrape wins against away. I think there may be a chance of us losing every game bar the Italian one and I think that'll be closer than we want.

We fell to 8th in the World Cup rankings with Lancaster and I could see us falling lower if something doesn't change soon.

I would be surprised if players pick playing in France than playing under Borthwick.

Ford got booed onto the pitch how long will it be before the crowd turns against the whole squad?

 

[Which Tyler]

I've always been in the "shouldn't have been appointed in the first case, but give him time" camp.

Pre-RWC, I was unhappy and unconvinced, but he had to be allowed the RWC itself.
During the RWC he reached par, and did so in unspectacular and uninteresting form - but it was enough that I wasn't calling for his head; but had him as "up for review after the 2024-25 season"
After the 2024 6N, he was in the ball-park of par to slight under-acheivement, with 3 dross performances, and 2 good ones; those 2 were enough to think he was still on target for "up for review after the 2024-25 season"
After the 2024 SIs, he had narrow losses to NZ (so, about par), but the performances were far from encouraging, but... he might still come good.
He needs to go 2 from 4 this Autumn, and currently, he can only do that by beating South Africa, whilst showing no signs of being capable of working out how.

If I were the RFU, I'd be dusting out the little black book today, and deciding on who to appoint in charge of recruitment for a new HC; but I'd hold fire until this time next week. If he does get the win against SA (and Japan) then he gets the 6N to turn things around; if not, then he gets the 6N as caretaker whilst we identify and negotiate with his replacement. Meaning that the actual hire comes in the summer, when everything should be more reasonable from a release point of view (and as part of that, a "******* off the current employer" point of view).

The only candidate I would consider from the Prem to take the role would be Mark McCall, but I doubt he'd be interested.
Ideally, the candidate should have experienced success as head coach at club level, and experience (preferably successful) as head coach internationally. I would assume any current tier 1 international coach is unavailable mid-cycle.
Off the top of my head, the short list could look something like:
Mark McCall
Jake White
Michael Cheika
Ronan O'Gara
John Mitchell (would need a longer caretaker role beforehand)

 

[EdBirch]

Who do you get to replace him?

I'd like to see someone like Ronan O'Gara or Shaun Edwards personally

 

[Geordie]

Well hes not going anywhere so we have to hope that they can turn things round.

I've backed SB alot but these games can't hide the issues.

I question the standard of standard of some of the playera now also....

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Give me
Head - Edwards
Forwards - Rowntree
Attack - Catt
line out - Parling

 

[Abraxaz]

He's apparently got the backing of the board.
His contract is till the end of this World Cup cycle, so three more years of this England style.

We as fans will need to embrace the likelihood that we are going to lose every game we attend.

Under Borthwick we are a tier 1.5 nation and should have our expectations as such.

our target against South Africa should be to keep it within 15.

 

[jordiev]

Earl the perfect bench option IMO

I actually think earl is one of the players that allows a 6-2 split logically, I am not going full barnes and saying play him as a centre but he is one of our forwards I wouldnt feel horrendous about having to fill in come injury crisis in the backs

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

We dont need a 6:2 bench. We just need a normal bench split. Earl at centre is stupid, just like a lot of SB decisions, pure stupidity.

 

[Saintjay]

If we are seriously considering Earl at centre. It shows how bad we are at developing players and a massive fault. It's not like it's been a recent issue.