England 2024/25

[LIONSxv]

Surely the number doesn't matter, the blend of the back 5 is the most important.

Who would play alongside him if he isn't doing much ruck work or giving you volume of tackles ?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Barf giving us the blueprint on how to use Lawrence at 12?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Obano gotta be first choice loosehead, such a good scrummager

 

[higgik]

Who would play alongside him if he isn't doing much ruck work or giving you volume of tackles ?

You would pick 2 lumps in the row, like the Boks do.
Think this is the issue with Itoje. His style is very much a line-out back row player or a 2nd row in the vein of Ian Jones, but they had a workhorse alongside and at 6.
I always think you need 2 'hitters' in the back 5, with a jackler, a link player and a safe line out option.

 

[higgik]

Watching Willis is demonstrating exactly what we are missing.
With him at 7, you could have Earl or Dombrandt at 8, with a power runner at 6, like CCS.

 

[LIONSxv]

You would pick 2 lumps in the row, like the Boks do.
Think this is the issue with Itoje. His style is very much a line-out back row player or a 2nd row in the vein of Ian Jones, but they had a workhorse alongside and at 6.
I always think you need 2 'hitters' in the back 5, with a jackler, a link player and a safe line out option.

I agree but that is a wishlist and not what we have selected. We don't have 2 lumps in the row or 2 hitters now that Martin is out. CCS would work well as an 8 alongside either Curry and an Underhill ( if either were fit at the same time)
For me we would not get away with CCS, Dombrandt in the back row at international level. The 7 would have to do too much tackling and ruck work. Especially with Itoje or even Chessum in the row.
As CCS is so young his fitness and ruck work should improve.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

England's Bok 'light' pqck

1 Marler
2 LCD
3 Cole
4 Martin
5 Tuima
6 Underhill
7 Itoje
8 baerbery

There we go, perfect for botherball.

 

[Geordie]

Im think we'll see something like..

4 Itoje
5 Chessum
6 Coles v Isiekwe
7 Underhill
8 Earl

And waiting to see if Barbeary gets the call up we think he will.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, I reckon that seems likely

Is Underhill fit, atm, though? He's not played since the first week of Champions cup, so it'll be about two months out by the time the Italy game rolls round
If he's not then I imagine it'll be Pearson at 7
If Curry's ankle did go, yesterday, then I that's an easy in for Barbeary, but if he and Underhill are both out we should probably be looking at a 7 (Evans)

 

[Geordie]

Yeah, I reckon that seems likely

Is Underhill fit, atm, though? He's not played since the first week of Champions cup, so it'll be about two months out by the time the Italy game rolls round
If he's not then I imagine it'll be Pearson at 7
If Curry's ankle did go, yesterday, then I that's an easy in for Barbeary, but if he and Underhill are both out we should probably be looking at a 7 (Evans)

Isnt that always the question

Yeah if hes not...then its Pearson...or Roots or maybe even CCS.

SB has given himself options to be fair..with Dombrandt there..and Barbeary if hes called up.

6. Coles / Isiekwe
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

6. Pearson
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

+ Roots and CCS to add different skill sets also...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah, I reckon that seems likely

Is Underhill fit, atm, though? He's not played since the first week of Champions cup, so it'll be about two months out by the time the Italy game rolls round
If he's not then I imagine it'll be Pearson at 7
If Curry's ankle did go, yesterday, then I that's an easy in for Barbeary, but if he and Underhill are both out we should probably be looking at a 7 (Evans)

Sanderson thought Curry would be OK.

No T Curry or Lawes. Question marks over Underhill fitness and possibly B Curry. No Willis brothers. No Barbeary yet, no Martin who's probably a lock but I'd still play at 6 ahead of Coles or Isiekwe. Haven't seen Earl post injury - is he near his RWC standard?

What might have been an area of real strength now doesn't look much more than OK. Definitely not really a point of difference compared to some of the back rows we'll be up against.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah if hes not...then its Pearson...or Roots or maybe even CCS.

Either of those last two at 7 is a very depressing thought, especially paired with a lock at 6

Haven't seen Earl post injury - is he near his RWC standard?

Playing well IMO, just playing in a stuttering Saracens side

He started at 7 this week so, like Geordie said above, could see him playing there for England with Dombrandt(/Barbeary) at 8

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Isnt that always the question

Yeah if hes not...then its Pearson...or Roots or maybe even CCS.

SB has given himself options to be fair..with Dombrandt there..and Barbeary if hes called up.

6. Coles / Isiekwe
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

6. Pearson
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

+ Roots and CCS to add different skill sets also...

Bar Earl all totally unproven at this level and to my mind Isiekwe's a lock who can cover 6 in an emergency.

People look at Lawes and talk about "lock types" at 6. Reality is that the same people also said that he couldn't play lock any more as he wasn't heavy or powerful enough.

Lawes, if not quite a generational player, is an extraordinary athlete whose skill level rocketed in the last few years of his international career. Trying to replicate him would be daft.

That said if we wanted a big out and out stopper at 6 I wouldn't mind a unit like Martin. But none of the "lock types" will be a great proxy for Lawes.

 

[Geordie]

Either of those last two at 7 is a very depressing thought, especially paired with a lock at 6


Playing well IMO, just playing in a stuttering Saracens side

He started at 7 this week so, like Geordie said above, could see him playing there for England with Dombrandt(/Barbeary) at 8

I agree....just wonder if he would be mirroring the Exeter set up in a way...like two big units on the flank and a flyer at 8...
N.B i dont think thats SB's personal choice...just what we might have to cope with at the moment.

 

[Geordie]

Bar Earl all totally unproven at this level and to my mind Isiekwe's a lock who can cover 6 in an emergency.

People look at Lawes and talk about "lock types" at 6. Reality is that the same people also said that he couldn't play lock any more as he wasn't heavy or powerful enough.

Lawes, if not quite a generational player, is an extraordinary athlete whose skill level rocketed in the last few years of his international career. Trying to replicate him would be daft.

That said if we wanted a big out and out stopper at 6 I wouldn't mind a unit like Martin. But none of the "lock types" will be a great proxy for Lawes.

This is going to be a tournament that alot of inexperience players are blooded.

Not ideal but in some cases it has to be done.

Earl and Underhill in the back row is strong...adding Pearson would be ideal...but is suspect it'll be a unit like Isiekwe ...or maybe Chessum with Isiekwe in at lock.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We've barely seen any of them at test level, so we can't definitively say anything much about any of them at that level (except that Earl can bring his club form, whilst Dombrandt can't / hasn't).

At club level, Mercer is a better 8 than those selected (oh, and it's IMO, not definitive anyway).

I fully endorse Mercer's attitude to being overlooked. I think he was (very) unwise to go public with it (unless the bridges with Borthwick were already burned in the summer, just behind closed doors - in which case, it's still unwise).

Mercer was tearing it up in France. Clearly given some encouragement, presumably by Jones, to come back. That was his decision of course but I can understand why he's thoroughly hacked off.

Uprooted what was going really well, joined a club where it really isn't and had a nasty injury. Not had a look in with Eng. Possibly paid less too?

In the RWC he saw a flanker take the 8 shirt and Borthwick move heaven and earth to pick an unfit, and seemingly unmotivated, Binny. He now sees a 6N squad with just one specialist 8 - who has had, and failed to take, the kind of chances that Mercer's after. By inference we can probably guess that he's behind T Willis and Barbeary in the overall scheme of things too.

When he went to France he went out of his comfort zone and put to bed the one big concern about him in his physicality. Dombrandt's responded to his RWC omission by playing really well for Quins but he's invariably played well for them, has he really done anything to make people think he'd now be a different proposition in a white shirt?

Probably unwise to go public, but we always complain that the public doesn't get to know the players well enough. Well here's one who's always been a bit media friendly, this time sticking his head right above the parapet. He'll have known the consequences.

And if he does think he's better than his competitors, great. There's an argument there and no-one reaches the top without a borderline unhealthy self regard.

Suspect it's only a matter of time before he's back over the Channel.

 

[Geordie]

Mercer was tearing it up in France. Clearly given some encouragement, presumably by Jones, to come back. That was his decision of course but I can understand why he's thoroughly hacked off.

Uprooted what was going really well, joined a club where it really isn't and had a nasty injury. Not had a look in with Eng. Possibly paid less too?

In the RWC he saw a flanker take the 8 shirt and Borthwick move heaven and earth to pick an unfit, and seemingly unmotivated, Binny. He now sees a 6N squad with just one specialist 8 - who has had, and failed to take, the kind of chances that Mercer's after. By inference we can probably guess that he's behind T Willis and Barbeary in the overall scheme of things too.

When he went to France he went out of his comfort zone and put to bed the one big concern about him in his physicality. Dombrandt's responded to his RWC omission by playing really well for Quins but he's invariably played well for them, has he really done anything to make people think he'd now be a different proposition in a white shirt?

Probably unwise to go public, but we always complain that the public doesn't get to know the players well enough. Well here's one who's always been a bit media friendly, this time sticking his head right above the parapet. He'll have known the consequences.

And if he does think he's better than his competitors, great. There's an argument there and no-one reaches the top without a borderline unhealthy self regard.

Suspect it's only a matter of time before he's back over the Channel.

Yeah, very soon i would imagine.

 

[Geordie]

ANyone think Roebuck played very well this weekend? Surely done his chances no harm at all...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Been on fire all season, tbf - and would fit Borthwick's playstyle down to a tee
I don't expect him to play though, tbh - others are (most rightfully, some wrongfully) higher up the pecking order - I hope he gets a start in the A game

I always hate having Italy as first game up, that's usually when you experiment a bit but with it being first up (and with us having so many enforced changes anyway) we don't have that opportunity

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I always hate having Italy as first game up, that's usually when you experiment a bit but with it being first up (and with us having so many enforced changes anyway) we don't have that opportunity

Wales are the second fixture so plenty of opportunity to rotate then.