England 2024/25

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

See how good they look if they're only licensed to hoof it high. Exhibit A: Ford, G.

Not disagreeing with you at all, but Farrell still has plenty of skill. It was more that, whether through his instinct or coaching instruction, we didn't see enough of it. Real Achilles heel was lack of a running game which restricted his threat and I'd more put down to a lack of speed and acceleration than anything else.

Out of curiosity, what skills did he have?

He certainly didn't have vision, nor pace, nor a step, nor bosh, he wasn't great at talking to the ref, nor at keeping a calm head, hia passing wasn't anything special and he wasn't a brilliant tackler either.

I'm sure he was the best trainer around and I must be missing something because all the coaches love him. But he didn't really do much.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

He certainly didn't have vision, nor pace, nor a step, nor bosh, he wasn't great at talking to the ref, nor at keeping a calm head, hia passing wasn't anything special and he wasn't a brilliant tackler either.

Disagree pretty strongly on this. He didn't use his passing game as much as he should have but it absolutely existed. He's sent some beautiful passes.

 

[Crash Hamster]

#Iceman [nods]

 

[Crash Hamster]

To be fair, some of the stuff he has produced at Saracens has been top drawer. You don't get to perform at that level by being anywhere near crap; he's just not quite displayed the extra X factor whoch makes a true graeat at international level. How much of that is his fault and how much is over-coaching, it's hard to say.

I'm much more hopeful of seeing England perform well with Smith at the helm.

 

[BPM]

Yep. Just wish he'd been able to finish his England career on a high note. Whether you like his play style or not the man has always given 100% commitment to the shirt and deserved a decent send off.

I agree that he deserved a proper send off. I've never been a fan of him as a player, but there's no doubt that he's been an ultra committed servant to English rugby.

His speech after the SA game still sticks with me as a farewell note. I said it at the time and while it didn't play out as I expected, I wouldn't mind betting this move has been in the works for a good while.

On 22nd October I wrote:

"Having slept on it, I have a weird feeling Farrell might retire from England duty. His interview was very different to his usual ones - almost wistful. I always thought he would want to do a Sexton. However, it came across like he knows he won't make it to 2027 and might decide he can bow out having become record points scorer etc."

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Out of curiosity, what skills did he have?

He certainly didn't have vision, nor pace, nor a step, nor bosh, he wasn't great at talking to the ref, nor at keeping a calm head, hia passing wasn't anything special and he wasn't a brilliant tackler either.

I'm sure he was the best trainer around and I must be missing something because all the coaches love him. But he didn't really do much.

I think to be fair to Farrell, at his peak for England and Saracens he was generally able to execute a gameplan fairly accurately and could throw some pretty solid passes. However I agree in that his ability to produce something from nothing was virtually non-existent. He always seemed to be a system player and if the system wasn't great, he floundered badly. Players like Russell and Marcus Smith have shown an ability to create something themselves, Farrell was always about just getting the pass or kick he was supposed to where it was supposed to.

Having said that, if your big thing his playing a high accuracy % game, you need to be executing that. Farrell has had too many games with England now where he hasn't. He's butchered overlaps, kicked for no reason, passes and kicking have been way off target, tackling has been consistently terrible and he's never shown signs of improving his technique. As supposedly the prime decision maker on the pitch, he has shown a distinct lack of creativity and decision making when the plan and system isn't working and things need changing.

Maybe time at Racing will turn him around but he's felt like he's been on the downwards slope ever since 2019.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

I agree that he deserved a proper send off. I've never been a fan of him as a player, but there's no doubt that he's been an ultra committed servant to English rugby.

His speech after the SA game still sticks with me as a farewell note. I said it at the time and while it didn't play out as I expected, I wouldn't mind betting this move has been in the works for a good while.

On 22nd October I wrote:

"Having slept on it, I have a weird feeling Farrell might retire from England duty. His interview was very different to his usual ones - almost wistful. I always thought he would want to do a Sexton. However, it came across like he knows he won't make it to 2027 and might decide he can bow out having become record points scorer etc."

Why then not retire like the others did instead of how he did do it.

 

[Geordie]

I miss Eddie Jones. I can't help but feel he would've had some great responses to Gatlands dig re Feyi Waboso but Borthwick is to boring sadly. Hopefully he ups his game in the build up to our game.

Borthwick dismisses Gatland dig as Feyi-Waboso's English connection emerges

The exact family link behind Immanuel Feyi-Waboso's England eligibility hasn't been revealed until now

www.walesonline.co.uk

I honestly hate the grandparents rule...it should be scrapped...

 

[higgik]

I agree but that is a wishlist and not what we have selected. We don't have 2 lumps in the row or 2 hitters now that Martin is out. CCS would work well as an 8 alongside either Curry and an Underhill ( if either were fit at the same time)
For me we would not get away with CCS, Dombrandt in the back row at international level. The 7 would have to do too much tackling and ruck work. Especially with Itoje or even Chessum in the row.
As CCS is so young his fitness and ruck work should improve.

True, I wasn't suggesting he play, just the style of pack he could play effectively in.

 

[higgik]

What most of us would like to see in the backs Vs what SB is comfortable with .Will be very different I suspect

SB will likely pick ford at 10 and Daly on the wing (even when he had gas he was never a winger imo)

The backs likely to be an improvement on the Farrell at 12 nonsense. However it could be so much more

Just hope I have him all wrong and he is able to more fluid with selection and tactics. Picking the most talented/ in form players in their best positions.

Watching Ford at weekend and same issues, behind a struggling pack he hasn't got the legs together out.

 

[BPM]

Why then not retire like the others did instead of how he did do it.

I'm not sure. Perhaps he wanted to see what happened with the hybrid contracts and whether he could use his status to play in France while still being eligible for England? I'm not claiming to be Nostradamus here - that speech just struck me as a goodbye and with all that's happened since, maybe it was.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think to be fair to Farrell, at his peak for England and Saracens he was generally able to execute a gameplan fairly accurately and could throw some pretty solid passes. However I agree in that his ability to produce something from nothing was virtually non-existent. He always seemed to be a system player and if the system wasn't great, he floundered badly. Players like Russell and Marcus Smith have shown an ability to create something themselves, Farrell was always about just getting the pass or kick he was supposed to where it was supposed to.

Having said that, if your big thing his playing a high accuracy % game, you need to be executing that. Farrell has had too many games with England now where he hasn't. He's butchered overlaps, kicked for no reason, passes and kicking have been way off target, tackling has been consistently terrible and he's never shown signs of improving his technique. As supposedly the prime decision maker on the pitch, he has shown a distinct lack of creativity and decision making when the plan and system isn't working and things need changing.

Maybe time at Racing will turn him around but he's felt like he's been on the downwards slope ever since 2019.

That's pretty fair on recent years. I'm also convinced the captaincy effected his game badly.

But also worth noting that he sometimes fired as a second playmaker 12, the shirt he wore for the 19 SF, the best performance of the Jones era, and for all bar one of the winning streak after Jones joined, albeit the rugby wasn't uniformly beautiful.

Also need to consider the pack he's been playing behind and the service he's had from the scrum half, neither of which have been too clever since 19. Not to mention the limited 'game plan'.

None of which is to disagree that Farrell's time hadn't come. Just some context.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Will be interesting if Lozowski gets game time at 10

At 30 moving to 10 might prolong his prime time. I hope he gets a chance to start in one position and not get moved about

 

[Geordie]

I agree but that is a wishlist and not what we have selected. We don't have 2 lumps in the row or 2 hitters now that Martin is out. CCS would work well as an 8 alongside either Curry and an Underhill ( if either were fit at the same time)
For me we would not get away with CCS, Dombrandt in the back row at international level. The 7 would have to do too much tackling and ruck work. Especially with Itoje or even Chessum in the row.
As CCS is so young his fitness and ruck work should improve.

To be fair...Dombrandt is actually excellent at the breakdown and im sure hes the second highest turnover maker at quins? So that gives you another angle if you play Dombrandt at 8...

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

To be fair...Dombrandt is actually excellent at the breakdown and im sure hes the second highest turnover maker at quins? So that gives you another angle if you play Dombrandt at 8...

Second highest in the Prem too. 4th across the Prem, URC and Top14.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Dombrandt's skills and footballing intelligence have never been in question. He's seldom been less than excellent for Quins.

He had a few handling errors for England which didn't help and which most of us keyboard warriors judged would probably have stuck at club level. The main question for me though has always been whether he's been able to step up to the physicality and intensity of the international arena. It is a jump and if he does get another crack I hope he can bridge it.

I kind of suspect Barbeary will eventually be more Borthwick's cup of tea though.

Barbeary himself admits to being a poor trainer, but the last thing we need is for him to get all sculpted, turn in better times on the track and with it lose some of the natural power that's the hallmark of his game. Always wondered if that's happened to a degree with Uni Rig too.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Barbeary himself admits to being a poor trainer, but the last thing we need is for him to get all sculpted, turn in better times on the track and with it lose some of the natural power that's the hallmark of his game. Always wondered if that's happened to a degree with Uni Rig too.

It's what happened to Dan Cole - I remember all the videos they put out showing him working with olympics sprint coaches etc.
His form drops off a cliff, he drops out of the England side, he goes back to eating pork pies for breakfast, his form skyrockets, he's back in the international scene

Sometimes you've gotta let forwards be forwards

 

[Crash Hamster]

I honestly hate the grandparents rule...it should be scrapped...

But then I wouldn't be eligible for Scotland...

Sometimes you've gotta let forwards be forwards

Exactly this. You'd think that coaches who were formerly forwards might understand. Max Lahiff looks like a Greek god, but is he a better scrummager than one of the fat lads?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Barbeary can become like Wiese, Wiese isn't peak athlete I would say.
But he lasts a full 80 playing at high intensity.

Alfie doesn't need to be lean but he needs to be able to play a full 80 at high intensity international rugby.

Also interesting that Walters identified that Wiese lack of fitness was his main cause of discipline problems. His first two seasons he had 7 cards for us, the last two years he hasn't gotten a single card

 

[Welsh Exile]

I honestly hate the grandparents rule...it should be scrapped...

I flip flop on it to be honest. I can totally see where you're coming from and most days agree with you and think it should just be 1 parent and/or 5 years residency but at the same time a 25% blood line is a decent amount as well but yeah I hear ya, I don't for 1 second think Nick Tompkins, for example, is really Welsh but it is what it is I suppose.