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England 2023/24

BPM said:
Mythical beasts I'm afraid. Lewis Chessum could be one, but he stalled last year (through injury) and didn't get promoted to Tigers' senior squad for 24/25. I wouldn't read too much into that alone, but he needs to get his development curve back on track as he looked very good for the U20s.

Ben Bamber has the size, but I'm not really sure he's actually that good. Maybe Sale can make something of him?

IIRC, the current U20 locks aren't that tall. Kpoku, Sodeke etc. are all big lads but more like 2m dead. Not much bigger than that.
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Coles and Isiekwe are in and around the squad already and both 2m+.

Curry didn't have the impact anyone hoped. Not really surprising, but hey what does TRF know? The Sale physio's previously spoken about his 'freakish' ability to put on muscle and to me it *looked* like he'd been in the gym big time. Optical illusion? Hadn't we previously established that his game suffers a bit when carrying too much bulk?
 
I wonder if Saints would consider Freeman at 13 full time going forward or still remaining a back 3 player.
 
Geordie said:
I wonder if Saints would consider Freeman at 13 full time going forward or still remaining a back 3 player.
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I might be out on this but i hope he's preferred at full back and wing. He's played a few games at centre but I'd personally prefer him at wing or full back.

Well for my team with the god awful badge that is.
 
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Geordie said:
I wonder if Saints would consider Freeman at 13 full time going forward or still remaining a back 3 player.
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I can't see it. He only covered there due to injuries and litchfield being young. Now litchfield has another season in him and we get Burger O back he won't be in the centre.

But another season of injuries for the centres and we may see him there to play that ballast centre role.
 
BPM said:
Scrum Half

Mitchell had a good tour and has now firmly established himself as first choice. Conversely, I hope Spencer's abject showing (combined with age) has put him out of contention.

I was very surprised JvP was left out and he is the obvious choice to come back in to the squad (probably as 2nd choice).

I thought Randall was good against Japan and I was disappointed he didn't get a run out yesterday. As a high tempo, sniping 9, I think he offers something a bit different and deserves to be in the mix with JvP.

Quirke is a funny one. A few years ago he looked like he was a potential answer to our scrum half conundrum, but injury and losing his place to Warr are major set backs. He has talent but he needs to stay fit and dislodge Warr to become a true contender IMO.

From a medium term POV, McParland looks like he has potential but too early to say.

Fly Half

Aside from his kicking in Dunedin, I thought Smith was mostly good, at times very good. I think we need to keep faith with him and give him a good run in the driving seat. Moving him to 15 in looser games is also a nice card to be able to play.

Fin Smith underwhelmed with the not insignificant caveat that he had the misfortune of being outside Spencer in the first test. He is a talent though and I think we need to continue investing in his development and giving him some starts next season.

Ford remains an excellent option to call upon. As a senior figure in the squad and as a mentor for the Smiths, he's a huge asset IMO as well as still being an extremely good option on the park.

Beyond that, it gets a little sketchy … Atkinson needs to re-establish himself at Gloucester and it remains to be seen whether Anscombe's arrival is going to help him or hinder him. I'm semi curious to see if Malins plays 10 for Bristol, but I'm not convinced he has the temperament to be a test fly half.

I'm definitely not an advocate of poaching, but if Fergus Burke goes well at Saracens, he could well spark an interesting race for his services. Preferably, Louie Johnson wins that battle and develops as a possible long term 10 option.

Centre

Ummm … the current pairing isn't quite right but it really is the best we have.

At 12 it's Atkinson, Ojomoh, Kelly, same old names bandied about but no-one really laying down a marker. Shame Hartley did his ACL as he looked the most likely. Hopefully he recovers well and makes good on his potential.

Dingwall deserves to be in the squad, but I only see him starting if others are unavailable which isn't the greatest endorsement.

Freeman could well be the best option at 13, particularly given we have a slew of good wingers.

Will Joseph should come back in to the mix now he's fit and if Northmore is going to play 12 for Quins post-Andre, he might well be an option. He's a very smart rugby player and underrated IMO - I think he has more of a point of difference than Dingwall, but that could be club bias.

Wing

The current pairing did very well on tour and there really is no real reason to change either at this stage, with the possible exception of moving a Freeman to 13. Sleightholme and Roebuck making really positive cameos was a big positive from the tour and both should get more opportunities in 24/25.

I still think Murley could come back in to the mix. His injury was really poorly timed to coincide with Sleightholme's stellar season. He'll certainly be there or thereabouts.

OHC is still on the periphery, but is now probably 6th choice. Ibitoye and a couple of other options are there if needed but given the age profile of our top 5 wingers, they're probably unlikely to get a look in.

At this point, I think we can forget about any comebacks from Anthony Watson.

Fullback

Furbank has established himself as an important player. Easily first choice now. Having 3 good 10s with Smith having the capability to slot in at 15 also means that a second playmaker should be our go-to option now. Maybe that opens the door for the likes of Malins and de Glanville but both very much in the 'back up' category.

I feel a bit sorry for Steward, but unless he can improve his playmaking skills and defence, he might find himself on the outside looking in.

Carpenter looks like a good option who I'd be tempted to give a run at some stage.

Hodge could also be very interesting, but he needs to learn to be a better team player to be a genuine option IMO.

I know Tyrone Green is soon to be eligible, but aside from the fact that I don't like poaching players, I just don't think his game is suited to test rugby. He's a brilliant broken field runner and dogged defender, but I think he's too tactically naive and lacks the kicking game to be successful.
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Isn't Marchant back in England this season?
 
TRF_Olyy said:


Considering he was running on fumes, Itoje's output is still mad
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Numbers aren't computing - what am I missing? 80 rucks across 160 minutes - a ruck every 2 minutes across 2 games. But given ball in play time's usually less than 40 mins per match is that actually trying to tell us he hit a ruck and a bit every available minute? He went well but I didn't notice the 'S' on his chest.

Regardless of what I think of stats, the next time Itoje dons an England shirt, the dust will just be settling on his 30th birthday party. Central contracts arriving in the nick of time if SB wants maximise his longevity and effectiveness.
 
I think that's all a very good assessment of where we're at but I think you do Slade a disservice by saying Freeman or a.n.other could do his job as a defensive leader. He quickly becoming the English Fickou and integral to what Jones is developing. Maybe someone else could do it but until another team is running as quick a blitz as Exeter in the coming seasons, I doubt it.


Also; whoever said Tuima looks like he's carrying timber could be right but hopefully he'll be chiseled oak soon! EggChasers said similar when he first starting getting prem starts
 
West Country Wail said:
Also; whoever said Tuima looks like he's carrying timber could be right but hopefully he'll be chiseled oak soon! EggChasers said similar when he first starting getting prem starts
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That was me...and it wasn't a slight on him merely that fitness at prem and fitness at international level (and Borthwicks requirements) is very different. Look what Saracens did with Skelton.

Thomas Waldrom was a heavy set lad but apparently blasted every fitness test going (amongst the fittest in both the tigers and Exeter squads)...so it's not about being ripped...

I think Tuima could be a very good option but at 6'5 and 20 stone 2 he will have pros and cons at this level...and also potentially a few 6'9 competitors soon...
 
Tuima is a similar height and weight to Paul Willemse who has done OK at test level.
 
BPM said:
Tuima is a similar height and weight to Paul Willemse who has done OK at test level.
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He did but France seem to expect different things from their forwards compared to England. Not saying either is right or wrong but there is a difference in how they play and body shape etc
 
BPM said:
Tuima is a similar height and weight to Paul Willemse who has done OK at test level.
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Willemse's a good couple of inches taller - cited everywhere at 2.01 vs Tuima's 1.95.

Weight, who knows? Tuima seems fairly consistently quoted around 128, Willemse generally around the same although I've seen him as high as 136.

Those stats are only the start of the story in how someone actually plays though.
 

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