England 2024/25

BPM · Jul 17, 2024

Of course. In a roundabout way, that's what I was getting at. A lock being big and heavy isn't necessarily a barrier to be successful at test level.

BPM · Jul 17, 2024

Looking at the AI fixtures, we'll need to address the scrum issues for NZ and definitely for SA. However, I think there's probably a bit of room for experimentation in the pack vs. Australia. We could do the same against Japan but if they bring a similar side to the one we played last month, we're not going to learn a huge amount.

I'd then look at following that up in some of the 6N fixtures. No disrespect to Wales, but as it is, any props they deploy aren't likely to be much more experienced than those we're developing.

TRF_Olyy · Jul 17, 2024

BPM said:
A lock being big and heavy isn't necessarily a barrier to be successful at test level.

Especially when our main lineout targets are 4 and 6 (regardless of who's playing 6 - used to be Curry, then was Chessum, now is CCS)

What's the maddest thing with Tuima is he's only played lock for one season and already looks this good

BPM · Jul 17, 2024

I'm optimistic about him. However, I'm probably the happiest I've been in a long time when it comes to our locks. Itoje and Martin is an excellent pairing and should only get better. Chessum is a very good option who isn't a huge step down on the starters and even if neither has really grasped their (limited) oppprtunities to date, Coles and Isiekwe are good players who I think can cut it at this level.

Behind that, Tuima, Tizard, Clark, Hammond and Bamber have promise and the U20s behind them probably look even better.

BPM · Jul 17, 2024

We really need to get on the case with proper A fixtures (not Portugal reserves). Ideally the Wolfhounds or Springbok A, maybe NZ Māori.

It would be a good opportunity to see if the players on the fringes of the squad can compete with their contemporaries.

TRF_Olyy · Jul 17, 2024

BPM said:
the U20s behind them probably look even better

Getting Kpoku Jr. back in country is a necessity - though it's going to take a big cheque to do it.
Can Sarries swing it? Is there too much bad blood there?
Bristol has the money and the need, but I don't know how I feel about a big tight 5 prospect going there

BPM · Jul 17, 2024

Agreed. Although Saracens already have Sodeke who also looks promising.

I think Launchbury only has a year left so I'd definitely be interesting in Quins taking him on.

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) · Jul 17, 2024

TRF_Olyy said:
Getting Kpoku Jr. back in country is a necessity - though it's going to take a big cheque to do it.
Can Sarries swing it? Is there too much bad blood there?
Bristol has the money and the need, but I don't know how I feel about a big tight 5 prospect going there

I guess the hope is we have 2 more years till Kpoku becomes JIFF qualified

Then a further 2 till he is able to play for France.

If Borthwick likes him he needs to butter him up now really, as once those milestones hit I don't any prem club will compete (if he is good enough). Also sounds like Bristol are tightening their budget more now

Lé Ddanno · Jul 17, 2024

TRF_Olyy said:
Especially when our main lineout targets are 4 and 6 (regardless of who's playing 6 - used to be Curry, then was Chessum, now is CCS)

What's the maddest thing with Tuima is he's only played lock for one season and already looks this good

RIP Lawes I guess.

Vieux Talonneur · Jul 17, 2024

BPM said:
I'm optimistic about him. However, I'm probably the happiest I've been in a long time when it comes to our locks. Itoje and Martin is an excellent pairing and should only get better. Chessum is a very good option who isn't a huge step down on the starters and even if neither has really grasped their (limited) oppprtunities to date, Coles and Isiekwe are good players who I think can cut it at this level.

Behind that, Tuima, Tizard, Clark, Hammond and Bamber have promise and the U20s behind them probably look even better.

While some people don't like 'lock type' flankers I'd find it hard to omit any of Itoje, Martin or Chessum from our current first choice line up. That prob means CCS to bench for now but I totally see him becoming our 8 in time.

TRF_Olyy · Jul 17, 2024

Lé Ddanno said:
RIP Lawes I guess.

If you move to France you're dead to me

Which Tyler · Jul 17, 2024

Vieux Talonneur said:
While some people don't like 'lock type' flankers I'd find it hard to omit any of Itoje, Martin or Chessum from our current first choice line up. That prob means CCS to bench for now but I totally see him becoming our 8 in time.

Speaking for myself - I've no problem with "lock type" flankers - but I want them to be flankers, not locks, if we want them to play on the flank.

For me, the experience with Lawes (and previously, Croft) shows that it takes gametime to adapt to the different demands (and body shapes) of the different positions.
A bit like a all-rounder in cricket, if you want someone to do both things internationally, then they have to be worthy of their place in both positions.
Itoje, Martin and Chessum are our best locks, none of them are our best BSF - they should only be asked to try if that's the way events transpire on the pitch, with one of them coming off the bench.

Cover from the bench, or emergency to cover a card or HIA is a different matter.

Not Mike Brown's Sock · Jul 17, 2024

England A v Aus A at the stoop in November.

Much better than Portugal

higgik · Jul 17, 2024

Which Tyler said:
Speaking for myself - I've no problem with "lock type" flankers - but I want them to be flankers, not locks, if we want them to play on the flank.

For me, the experience with Lawes (and previously, Croft) shows that it takes gametime to adapt to the different demands (and body shapes) of the different positions.
A bit like a all-rounder in cricket, if you want someone to do both things internationally, then they have to be worthy of their place in both positions.
Itoje, Martin and Chessum are our best locks, none of them are our best BSF - they should only be asked to try if that's the way events transpire on the pitch, with one of them coming off the bench.

Cover from the bench, or emergency to cover a card or HIA is a different matter.

Agreed, same as a BSF or 8 covering lock if needed.

BPM · Jul 17, 2024

Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
England A v Aus A at the stoop in November.

Much better than Portugal

Hadn't seen that. Much more like it!

Vieux Talonneur · Jul 17, 2024

Which Tyler said:
Speaking for myself - I've no problem with "lock type" flankers - but I want them to be flankers, not locks, if we want them to play on the flank.

For me, the experience with Lawes (and previously, Croft) shows that it takes gametime to adapt to the different demands (and body shapes) of the different positions.
A bit like a all-rounder in cricket, if you want someone to do both things internationally, then they have to be worthy of their place in both positions.
Itoje, Martin and Chessum are our best locks, none of them are our best BSF - they should only be asked to try if that's the way events transpire on the pitch, with one of them coming off the bench.

Cover from the bench, or emergency to cover a card or HIA is a different matter.

It partly depends what you want from them. But genuine question - who do you think is?

Which Tyler · Jul 17, 2024

Underhill - plays the roll of the 6, but wearing 7 so that he can be aimed at the FH off the scrum
Then TCurry (when fit)
CCS or if we're moving someone into the 6 shirt, then I don't see any reason that Earl couldn't wear 6.

If you want a lock type of BSF who actually plays BSF, then Hill

Let's keep Itoje, Martin and Chessum pushing each other to be the best locks available, or invest 30+ matches into one of them to convert to being a specialist BSF.

Ragey Erasmus · Jul 17, 2024

Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
England A v Aus A at the stoop in November.

Much better than Portugal

Australia A, for when you didn't think you already had enough "A"s in your name.

Geordie · Jul 17, 2024

Vieux Talonneur said:
It partly depends what you want from them. But genuine question - who do you think is?

I think Ted HIll is starting to show the consistency that his game required. Is he our best., probably not yet...... Borthwick has spoken to HIll about the reasons he wasnt on this tour...but he could well be in the next squad. Im not convinced by Roots...

Was it Lawes who said Chessum is the nearest we have to him? I guess how he develops will depend on where the Tigers decide to play him...is it likely that Chessum could become a 6 full time with them? As Above...i dont really want a lock at prem level playing 6 at international level.

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) · Jul 17, 2024

Tigers will be interesting because of our number 8 situation very possible that Martin and Henderson start at locks with Chessum 6 and Hanro at 8.

England 2024/25

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English Arrogance

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