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England 2023/24

I'm not convinced Genge is really the answer at LH, he's looked lazy and generally poor for a few seasons now. Yes he has the odd flash of brilliance but he seems to have a massive attitude problem on the pitch.

I know I've said it before but we need a back up to Martin, he's so crucial and there is a shortage of TH locks across the prem.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
I'm not convinced Genge is really the answer at LH, he's looked lazy and generally poor for a few seasons now. Yes he has the odd flash of brilliance but he seems to have a massive attitude problem on the pitch.

I know I've said it before but we need a back up to Martin, he's so crucial and there is a shortage of TH locks across the prem.
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I get where you're coming from. I do feel that Genge is a little overrated. Possibly my Quins bias but I do feel that Baxter could be the real deal. In 3 years he might well be our starting loosehead.

Tuima is probably the prime candidate to be Martin's back up. I'd like to see him involved in the AIs.
 
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I feel both Genge and Sinckler have followed similar paths. Both were hot headed but also seemed to have some drive in them. It felt more like they were rough edges to be smoothed out with experience, a bit more level headedness and improved technical ability. Now it feels like the hard edge is gone but has been replaced with players who are apathetic rather than a more refined version of who they were.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
I feel both Genge and Sinckler have followed similar paths. Both were hot headed but also seemed to have some drive in them. It felt more like they were rough edges to be smoothed out with experience, a bit more level headedness and improved technical ability. Now it feels like the hard edge is gone but has been replaced with players who are apathetic rather than a more refined version of who they were.
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Both went to a club that isn't know for it's hard edge.... Genge in his final season at Leicester was the perfect mix of nasty but level headed.

Baxter we will have to see how he develops but our scrum was taken apart v NZ. 3 years he may be the real deal, 3 years we may be talking about how this new player coming up as a 20 year old is the real deal in 3 years (One day a real deal will become well real).
 
BPM said:
I get where you're coming from. I do feel that Genge is a little overrated. Possibly my Quins bias but I do feel that Baxter could be the real deal. In 3 years he might well be our starting loosehead.

Tuima is probably the prime candidate to be Martin's back up. I'd like to see him involved in the AIs.
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I'd have to see more of Tuima to be honest, I've only seen a couple of games and I probably wasn't focussed on him so can't really judge him.

All that I can say compared to Martin, is that Martin is a lump, who offers the highlight reel in defence and also the grunt stuff and has an amazing engine. Hopefully Tuima is in the same mould.

It feels strange being nice about a tigers player but I do have my man crush on Chessum and Martin.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
I'd have to see more of Tuima to be honest, I've only seen a couple of games and I probably wasn't focussed on him so can't really judge him.

All that I can say compared to Martin, is that Martin is a lump, who offers the highlight reel in defence and also the grunt stuff and has an amazing engine. Hopefully Tuima is in the same mould.

It feels strange being nice about a tigers player but I do have my man crush on Chessum and Martin.
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Martin is the tough lock we need, Tuima could be that next tough one.
I agree for AI, a Chessum, Martin 2nd row would be a good option.
 
Tuima is a big heavy lock who performs a similar role to Martin. He's maybe a slightly better carrier (he was an 8), but Martin is superior in all other facets right now. I'd see him as a decent back up option with the potential to get better rather than being a like-for-like.

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) said:
Both went to a club that isn't know for it's hard edge.... Genge in his final season at Leicester was the perfect mix of nasty but level headed.

Baxter we will have to see how he develops but our scrum was taken apart v NZ. 3 years he may be the real deal, 3 years we may be talking about how this new player coming up as a 20 year old is the real deal in 3 years (One day a real deal will become well real).
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Hence the could. However, as I recall the majority of our scrum difficulty was on the tighthead side in both tests, so it's somewhat unfair to blame our scrum issues on Baxter.
 
stus768 said:
And they still don't just bite the bullet and pick the best scrummagers. Even if they may be worse around the park. (Dan Cole aside)
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Part of the issue is when England decided ball playing dynamic props was the way forward.

When in all reality like SA rugby realise till they change the scrum laws to League. Big lumps that can scrum should always be the first priority.
 
You are right there. However, if you watch our age grade sides, I think it's clear that we're actively prioritising the scrum. For our current U20 side, it's probably our biggest weapon.

From a senior POV, we have work to do in redressing the balance.

stus768 said:
And they still don't just bite the bullet and pick the best scrummagers. Even if they may be worse around the park. (Dan Cole aside)
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Such as? Marler was also picked for his scrummaging and experience.

Who is it that's eligible and has been left out?

Obano probably would have gone on tour but for his red card in the Premiership final and VRR is injured (again).

Painter and Iosefa-Scott are both huge men but not particularly good technical scrummagers. Annoyingly, Street supposedly is but is usually 3rd choice.

Collier probably should have been in the mix for the past couple of years but he's not much younger and is now in France.

Schonert is old and injured.

I can't think of anyone else who is notably good in the scrum who isn't already in the picture?
 
Sorting out the front row is a big priority.

Behind them though I want 2 2 metre tall proper line out operators. I don't really care whether they're wearing 4, 5 or 6 but we need that presence. Chessum's one of those, and if you believe wiki he's virtually the same weight as Etzebeth (not in the same biceps league though). Martin gets away with not being a leaping salmon because he's excellent elsewhere and a proper tough nut - but never seen anything to suggest that Tuima's remotely in the same class.

Right to blood CCS at 6, but I suspect he'll end up at 8 before long. Which isn't at all to decry what Earl's done - he's been mostly excellent over the last year. Just the kind of presence a lot of people (viz me) like at 8 and a balance thing.
 
BPM said:
You are right there. However, if you watch our age grade sides, I think it's clear that we're actively prioritising the scrum. For our current U20 side, it's probably our biggest weapon.
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The U20 front five has been downright alarming and doesn't seem to get any worse with changes in personnel. I've been most impressed, the best we've had for a very long time.

Baxter has been good in the Prem, then good in Europe, then not at all out of place at international level. He seems to have some ball-playing skills too. We just have to hope he remains, fit, strong and motivated.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Sorting out the front row is a big priority.

Behind them though I want 2 2 metre tall proper line out operators. I don't really care whether they're wearing 4, 5 or 6 but we need that presence. Chessum's one of those, and if you believe wiki he's virtually the same weight as Etzebeth (not in the same biceps league though). Martin gets away with not being a leaping salmon because he's excellent elsewhere and a proper tough nut - but never seen anything to suggest that Tuima's remotely in the same class.

Right to blood CCS at 6, but I suspect he'll end up at 8 before long. Which isn't at all to decry what Earl's done - he's been mostly excellent over the last year. Just the kind of presence a lot of people (viz me) like at 8 and a balance thing.
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Mythical beasts I'm afraid. Lewis Chessum could be one, but he stalled last year (through injury) and didn't get promoted to Tigers' senior squad for 24/25. I wouldn't read too much into that alone, but he needs to get his development curve back on track as he looked very good for the U20s.

Ben Bamber has the size, but I'm not really sure he's actually that good. Maybe Sale can make something of him?

IIRC, the current U20 locks aren't that tall. Kpoku, Sodeke etc. are all big lads but more like 2m dead. Not much bigger than that.
 
BPM said:
Ben Bamber has the size, but I'm not really sure he's actually that good.
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Good hands and reasonable jumper but not noticeable in the tight/the maul - to be expected considered he only started playing union a couple of years ago, after being League up until then
Hopefully that'll come with time as he's got a lot of potential, but not one to be in consideration yet
Sanderson reckons he's going to pack on some more mass as well, so see how that effects his play
 
I think the thing with Tuima might be his conditioning. He s a big powerful guy but he does look like hes carrying some timber.
 

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