England 2022/23

[TRF_Olyy]

Tbh I could see both Mercer and Dombrandt being in the same RWC squad,
I reckon Mercer starts the first warm up at the least - could even see him getting a game, or at least some time, at 6

Really awkward position in the backrow going into the warmups with players coming back from injury (Curry), players now available (Mercer), players unavailable for training camp (Willis)

We've got four games to find our first choice backrow and get them all singing from the same hymn sheet

Baring in mind Borthwick was forwards coach in 2019, so would have had an input into the touring makeup, we took:
Curry
Ludlam
Underhill
Vunipola
Wilson

I could see this time being:
Curry
Ludlam
Willis
Dombrandt
Mercer

 

[Reiser99]

Tbh I could see both Mercer and Dombrandt being in the same RWC squad,
I reckon Mercer starts the first warm up at the least - could even see him getting a game, or at least some time, at 6

Really awkward position in the backrow going into the warmups with players coming back from injury (Curry), players now available (Mercer), players unavailable for training camp (Willis)

We've got four games to find our first choice backrow and get them all singing from the same hymn sheet

Baring in mind Borthwick was forwards coach in 2019, so would have had an input into the touring makeup, we took:
Curry
Ludlam
Underhill
Vunipola
Wilson

I could see this time being:
Curry
Ludlam
Willis
Dombrandt
Mercer

It's cute you think Jones allowed his assistant coaches input.

 

[HamJan]

Tbh I could see both Mercer and Dombrandt being in the same RWC squad,
I reckon Mercer starts the first warm up at the least - could even see him getting a game, or at least some time, at 6

Really awkward position in the backrow going into the warmups with players coming back from injury (Curry), players now available (Mercer), players unavailable for training camp (Willis)

We've got four games to find our first choice backrow and get them all singing from the same hymn sheet

Baring in mind Borthwick was forwards coach in 2019, so would have had an input into the touring makeup, we took:
Curry
Ludlam
Underhill
Vunipola
Wilson

I could see this time being:
Curry
Ludlam
Willis
Dombrandt
Mercer

Does this mean you think he'll take Lawes as second row or not at all?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Does this mean you think he'll take Lawes as second row or not at all?

Really not sure tbh, leaning towards him going as a hybrid, but part of me wonders whether he can still hang at the top level, physically, after his concussion issues?
The only game he played under Borthwick was as lock sub
Part of it hinges on whether Chessum is fully fit

Locks last time were:
Maro Itoje
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes

Hard to pick who would go if we kept the same numbers this time. Martin missed the 6N so it's tough to know where he is in the pecking order, but he finished the season in better form than all other options.
Itoje
Chessum
Martin
Lawes

With Ribbans as next cab off the rank if Chessum isn't fit or Lawes doesn't make the cut
Never know, Launchbury might make the grade - unlikely IMO, but if he makes the training squad then who knows

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Hard to really know but if there are 5 spaces up for grabs in the 33 man squad for France then there's some really good players who will miss out

1 Curry - covers all positions
2 Willis - covers 6 and 7
3 Dombrant - the 8 in position of the shirt
4 Ludlum - covers 6,7 & 8
5 ?????? Earl? Mercer? Pearson? Underhill? Who knows.

Maybe Lawes goes as 4th lock and 6 cover so gets an extra backrow that way.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Maybe Lawes goes as 4th lock and 6 cover so gets an extra backrow that way.

That was what I was initially thinking, but really it's only Ribbans from our lock options that hasn't played quite a bit of backrow so I don't know if that's enough of a selling point

How was Lawes' form towards the end of the seaosn? I honestly can't remember if he was good or not, I vaguely remember some complaints about his carrying, but he's always been an upright carrier so I dunno

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

That was what I was initially thinking, but really it's only Ribbans from our lock options that hasn't played quite a bit of backrow so I don't know if that's enough of a selling point

How was Lawes' form towards the end of the seaosn? I honestly can't remember if he was good or not, I vaguely remember some complaints about his carrying, but he's always been an upright carrier so I dunno

He looked like he was coming back from injury and didn't really look himself to be honest. I know he was coming back from injury but previously Lawes had come back at 110% but he's that bit older now.

He might not be in the form of his life but he won't let you down and is a very calm head etc but not sure that's enough over ribbans.

I'd have Martin, Itoje and Chessum (if fit) as my main locks and yeah agree they all cover 6 so maybe a ribbans or lauchberry for that 4th lock spot.

 

[TopTen2003]

I mean I've not played rugby to a high level so I don't actually know, and this is very much a question….

Don't all teams play with structure? Does anyone play heads up rugby? If if they are looking for gaps I'm assuming they have a plan to manipulate the defence and have a plan to exploit them?

Is heads up rugby a real thing at that level?

Thought this was a fab question by the way. Like you, I've never played at any professional level, but have some thoughts on it.

For me, a better description is "Eyes wide open rugby" as heads up gives everyone this idea that you wing it.

For context- correct me if I'm wrong guys but I think Sir Clive Woodward hired eye coaches (yes, eye coaches) for England in the year or two leading up to the RWC 2003. IIRC, he explained at the time, that it was the most important muscle a player has- because spatial awareness was everything.

People mistake that England side as a one dimensional side because of their forwards prowess, but they were very much aware of taking opportunities to strike. Wilkinson chip v NZ 2002, Cohen in the same game, Robinson burst for Greenwood in the QF v Wales and one that isn't known as a flashy try but was a great example is when Dallaglio spots a gap to take a short pass before letting Wilkinson unleash Robinson the RWC final. Long story short- I think all teams have a structure and some foundations for phase continuation, but it's the anticipation, identification, and the taking of an opportunity that sets apart the absolute best from the rest.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Thought this was a fab question by the way. Like you, I've never played at any professional level, but have some thoughts on it.

For me, a better description is "Eyes wide open rugby" as heads up gives everyone this idea that you wing it.

For context- correct me if I'm wrong guys but I think Sir Clive Woodward hired eye coaches (yes, eye coaches) for England in the year or two leading up to the RWC 2003. IIRC, he explained at the time, that it was the most important muscle a player has- because spatial awareness was everything.

People mistake that England side as a one dimensional side because of their forwards prowess, but they were very much aware of taking opportunities to strike. Wilkinson chip v NZ 2002, Cohen in the same game, Robinson burst for Greenwood in the QF v Wales and one that isn't known as a flashy try but was a great example is when Dallaglio spots a gap to take a short pass before letting Wilkinson unleash Robinson the RWC final. Long story short- I think all teams have a structure and some foundations for phase continuation, but it's the anticipation, identification, and the taking of an opportunity that sets apart the absolute best from the rest.

This, I can't understand why "heads up rugby" is supposed to be this mythical beast rather than something that is taught all the time at all levels. If you are a speedy player and the gameplan says you should pass the ball but there is a massive gap in front of you with only a prop who has been on the field for 60 minutes, it shouldn't be any great skill to see and exploit that.

England's blind following of the gameplan where we would frequently kick when we had overlaps (worst I've seen was a 4 on 1 butchered) is inexcusable. Even kids would be taught to react to what is in front of them and the extreme rigidity England have played with at times has been just painful, especially when these same players didn't do that at their clubs. It screams lack of confidence and/or and overbearing coach. The whole point of a gameplan is that it is just that, a plan. Every plan that is worth following will have space to allow it to change depending on circumstances and build in contingency.

 

[Reiser99]

This, I can't understand why "heads up rugby" is supposed to be this mythical beast rather than something that is taught all the time at all levels. If you are a speedy player and the gameplan says you should pass the ball but there is a massive gap in front of you with only a prop who has been on the field for 60 minutes, it shouldn't be any great skill to see and exploit that.

England's blind following of the gameplan where we would frequently kick when we had overlaps (worst I've seen was a 4 on 1 butchered) is inexcusable. Even kids would be taught to react to what is in front of them and the extreme rigidity England have played with at times has been just painful, especially when these same players didn't do that at their clubs. It screams lack of confidence and/or and overbearing coach. The whole point of a gameplan is that it is just that, a plan. Every plan that is worth following will have space to allow it to change depending on circumstances and build in contingency.

I think the issue is that they are taught to play heads up rugby, but that it's not part of a system for England. Your attack should be about manipulating the defence to create opportunities and then taking them at the right time. However, every player should be on the same wave length. It's why Ireland are so good right now. They all seem to know what they are doing and when and whena gap or opening is exploited, they all know what they have to do next. Du Pont is another example, he always seems to know what his team mates will do and is ready to support them.

England on the other hand look like a team of individuals who can make breaks and exploit chances, but the rest of the team isn't in sync, so they can't exploit them properly and often actually a break gets a player isolated. I think it's why England have almost resorted to negative attacking play when they make a break, because the attacking player is not sure if he's being supported, so rather than continuing to attack he will slow down or wait and look for support meaning the break isn't as effective.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I remember when Ford was playing for England after his initial great start and he kept making little line breaks. The problem was at every single one he got turned over because he's small and had no support.

After that he stopped making them for England. Not sure if that's confidence or the team saying 'don't run on your own' as he constantly got turned over. But no idea why the backrow didn't support his runs.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I remember when Ford was playing for England after his initial great start and he kept making little line breaks. The problem was at every single one he got turned over because he's small and had no support.

After that he stopped making them for England. Not sure if that's confidence or the team saying 'don't run on your own' as he constantly got turned over. But no idea why the backrow didn't support his runs.

This is part of what 'heads up' rugby means. It's being aware of what's going on around you and then taking the right decision for those circumstances.

Talking generally, not about Ford. If you make a break, look around and see you have no support then it's usually the wrong decision to plough on regardless even if your momentum might make an extra couple of metres. Better to slow up and wait for the support so that the move can continue. As for a 10 making a half break there just really ought to be a back rower somewhere near.

Which all sounds very easy on paper…..

 

[BPM]

It does sound very easy on paper, but OTOH, I think you're penultimate sentence sums it up - it's pretty much rugby 101 for a back row player to be available and alert enough to be supporting a 10 making a break. I don't even think I'd categorise that as heads-up rugby TBH. As a back rower, being ready to offer that support is a pretty basic fundamental.

In other news, I've seen quite a few foreign pundits saying we won't make it out of the group - Matt Giteau being he latest. I'm under no illusions that we're pretty crap right now, but I'd still strongly fancy us to get out of the group even if it is in second. Historical records don't count for much on the day, but I think it's statistically unlikely we lose to both Argentina and Japan. I might end up eating my words here, but I think Argentina are overrated off the back of a couple of decent results. I also think Japan playing at home last time out with a system designed solely to maximise the performance of their squad in the year building up to the tournament, has given a bit of a false impression of how good they actually are. I wouldn't take them lightly, but I don't think they've ever beaten a tier 1 nation outside of Japan.

I've said it before, but the sequence of games is good for us. The two biggest games in the pool to start followed by an opportunity to rotate the squad vs. Chile if all has gone to plan. For the Samoa game we'd probably a mix/match type of squad. Hopefully Borthwick makes the most of the prep time and we're in good form come the knock outs.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I wouldn't take them lightly, but I don't think they've ever beaten a tier 1 nation outside of Japan.

Agree with the gist of what you're saying but man, how have you forgotten South Africa in 2015?

 

[Reiser99]

This is part of what 'heads up' rugby means. It's being aware of what's going on around you and then taking the right decision for those circumstances.

Talking generally, not about Ford. If you make a break, look around and see you have no support then it's usually the wrong decision to plough on regardless even if your momentum might make an extra couple of metres. Better to slow up and wait for the support so that the move can continue. As for a 10 making a half break there just really ought to be a back rower somewhere near.

Which all sounds very easy on paper…..

Yeah, but that's the problem. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the player making a break to see if he's supported or not, it should be the responsibility of other players to keep up with them and England seem to do that very badly at the moment.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't know if it's been announced before but I saw Wilko is joining the '23 coaching staff as kicking coach

Big boost just in a leadership/mindset role as much as anything else tbf

 

[BPM]

Agree with the gist of what you're saying but man, how have you forgotten South Africa in 2015?

Being old and apparently senile?

 

[Reiser99]

Don't know if it's been announced before but I saw Wilko is joining the '23 coaching staff as kicking coach

Big boost just in a leadership/mindset role as much as anything else tbf

Is that permanently or just advising? He's been in and around the England setup for kicking for a while.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is that permanently or just advising? He's been in and around the England setup for kicking for a while.

From what I read it's a formal appointment for the tournament rather than the casual role he had before

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I've been watching some of the 2019 RWC content on England's YT channel and god, I'd forgotten just how impressive Curry and Underhill were together.

The things I'd do to have a fully fit Underhill back…