England 2022/23

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I've been watching some of the 2019 RWC content on England's YT channel and god, I'd forgotten just how impressive Curry and Underhill were together.

The things I'd do to have a fully fit Underhill back…

He constantly created momentum for the team with his hits and his work around the park. Does Willis replace that combo for the moment?

Curry/ Willis combo?


Edit: does anyone know why Ollie HC got dropped by the way? He didn't play badly but seemed to disappear after 2 games.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Curry/ Willis combo?

That's my prediction - Curry's physicality has upped significantly since the last RWC, and his carrying is better than ever

Edit: does anyone know why Ollie HC got dropped by the way? He didn't play badly but seemed to disappear after 2 games.

I'm guessing versatility/Borthwick wanting the extra FB experience in there considering our kick heavy gameplan - he brought Watson to Tigers so it's not that surprising he was brought in for England as soon as he was fit
Arundell is/was flavour of the month - I wouldn't have expected Borthwick to be one to buy into media hype but c'est la vie.

I didn't think OHC did anything wrong in the 6N but he didn't really do...anything. Bit unfortunate to be on the wing he was - can't remember any(/many?) of Malins' tries requiring a lot of finishing, but he got the plaudits for the moves ending on his wing whereas OHC barely saw the ball.

 

[Reiser99]

That's my prediction - Curry's physicality has upped significantly since the last RWC, and his carrying is better than ever


I'm guessing versatility/Borthwick wanting the extra FB experience in there considering our kick heavy gameplan - he brought Watson to Tigers so it's not that surprising he was brought in for England as soon as he was fit
Arundell is/was flavour of the month - I wouldn't have expected Borthwick to be one to buy into media hype but c'est la vie.

I didn't think OHC did anything wrong in the 6N but he didn't really do...anything. Bit unfortunate to be on the wing he was - can't remember any(/many?) of Malins' tries requiring a lot of finishing, but he got the plaudits for the moves ending on his wing whereas OHC barely saw the ball.

Definitely think it's hard to judge wingers at the moment with the way England play. If they were getting the ball fair enough, but you can't hold it against them if the team just plays route 1.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

That's my prediction - Curry's physicality has upped significantly since the last RWC, and his carrying is better than ever


I'm guessing versatility/Borthwick wanting the extra FB experience in there considering our kick heavy gameplan - he brought Watson to Tigers so it's not that surprising he was brought in for England as soon as he was fit
Arundell is/was flavour of the month - I wouldn't have expected Borthwick to be one to buy into media hype but c'est la vie.

I didn't think OHC did anything wrong in the 6N but he didn't really do...anything. Bit unfortunate to be on the wing he was - can't remember any(/many?) of Malins' tries requiring a lot of finishing, but he got the plaudits for the moves ending on his wing whereas OHC barely saw the ball.

Which was odd because, iirc, OHC was on the left wing and Malins on the right. Normally you'd expect the left wing to get the ball a bit more just because people pass more easily to their left.

 

[BrokenWing]

Did a lot of Mailns' tries come off of kicks?

 

[BPM]

As I recall, OHC looked nervous and indecisive and on the limited occasions he got the ball, he definitely didn't shine. All pretty naturally for a debutant in a poorly performing team, but it wasn't really surprising or controversial he was dropped.

My disappointment was that Watson was brought straight back in with 0 form when Murley should have been given a chance.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

As I recall, OHC looked nervous and indecisive and on the limited occasions he got the ball, he definitely didn't shine. All pretty naturally for a debutant in a poorly performing team, but it wasn't really surprising or controversial he was dropped.

My disappointment was that Watson was brought straight back in with 0 form when Murley should have been given a chance.

I also thought Arendell looked indecisive and rather similar but worse basics than OHC but I might be wrong on that.

Watson did seem to play well though although I wanted Freeman back who was in brilliant form.

 

[BPM]

I agree on all of that.

I think Arundell gets cut a bit more slack because he's shown he's capable of outrageous bits of magic. At the moment, it feels a bit like he's trying a bit to hard to do something spectacular every time he gets the ball. It's a bit of a fine line - I want him to keep his instinctive, run from anywhere style, but I also want to see him to develop some of the less glamorous aspects of his game. I just hope doing the latter doesn't take too much away from the former …

Whatever way you put it though, there's no denying Arundell's introduction to test rugby (on the Australia tour) was a lot more impactful than OHC's.

I'm also a big fan of Freeman and I'm surprised he didn't get a run out in the 6N.

We're in that strange situation where we've got about 6 really promising back three players but pretty much all of them are lacking experience which either means picking one and giving them time to adapt to test level or a cycle of experimenting until someone really seizes the opportunity. The best case scenario is we luck out and someone takes to test level like a duck to water and ends the debate for us.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I, too, am a big fan of Freeman - it's surprising he's not had a proper crack at it

Arundell looks like he's got some second season syndrome going on - speed and athleticism is still there but his decision making and execution of basic skills, since his return from injury, has left a lot to be desired.
Really he should've been left with LI over the 6N to find some form not rushed in off of the back of 30mins of poor rugby,

I'd be surprised if he's not in the RWC squad, at this stage, so hopefully the end of season break and then extended training sessions over the summer can settle him a bit.
He wouldn't be in my RWC squad but he does game changing speed/agility, so we need him firing on all cylinders if he's to be involved

 

[BPM]

Hard to argue with that. Personally, I would have Arundell in my squad. With the squad size now at 33, I think there's room for a player like him. There's a chance we might need a game breaker at some point and arguably, he's about the best Hail Mary we've got.

 

[Reiser99]

Hard to argue with that. Personally, I would have Arundell in my squad. With the squad size now at 33, I think there's room for a player like him. There's a chance we might need a game breaker at some point and arguably, he's about the best Hail Mary we've got.

Agreed, when your attack is so impotent you need a game changer. He won't win you a world cup, but maybe he'll win you a knockout game.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

OHC could have been given more of a chance but he didn't take what he was given.

He, Murley and Freeman have done very well at club level. On that basis they deserved a chance but (and I know @BPM won't agree on Murley) I haven't seen any real X factor stuff from any of them to make me think they'd stand out at the top level. Same boat as Malins.

Arundell, potentially, has the X factor. But he's had an injury ravaged season so has still barely played senior rugby and I think most, if not all, of his club starts have been at 15. So chucking him in on the wing v Ire was not Borthwick's finest hour. Would I take him to the RWC? Yes, but Hail Mary is the right phrase.

 

[BPM]

I don't know if being a highly effective test winger is purely about 'X factor' TBH. For example, I haven't really seen anything that fits that description from Mack Hansen, but he's gone from being regarded as a simply decent player in Australia to being pretty much a guaranteed pick for Ireland. Not bad when you consider they're ranked No. 1 ATM.

I think any of Murley, Freeman and OHC have the potential to do something similar for England given a decent chance. Radwan probably deserves a bit more of a look, but while he may have more flair, I think the other three are better rugby players/better suited to test rugby. I also think there's only likely to be room for one 'X factor' pick, which IMO has Radwan losing out to Arundell.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Radwan >> Arundell tbh
Feel like people really latched onto Radwan's defence being an issue but I've seen him have some very good defensive games for Newcastle, Arundell's defence is definitely worse

High ball is the only area where Arundell has him beat, but then again I feel like that's pretty high up the pecking order for what England want from their back three considering our first choice back 3 is 3 fullbacks so makes sense tbh

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't know if being a highly effective test winger is purely about 'X factor' TBH. For example, I haven't really seen anything that fits that description from Mack Hansen, but he's gone from being regarded as a simply decent player in Australia to being pretty much a guaranteed pick for Ireland. Not bad when you consider they're ranked No. 1 ATM.

Not purely, no. They absolutely have to be able to do the basics too, but it is definitely a position where the ability to do something a little special will affect the scoreboard.

Hansen's a good player but he's also lucky to be playing in a side with a clear plan and functioning half backs and centres. Few wingers, and definitely not ours, have that luxury. And if the structure's not there then ordinary won't cut it and you're more in to rabbit out of a hat time. That's why I think Borthwick's so far bought in to Arundell.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think quite a number of English wingers would look just as effective if stuck in that Ireland team.

Is Mr Hansen an actual better player than a Murley/ Freeman type player, I don't personally think so.

The problem I feel for England is the Malins/ OHC/ Freddie type player that offer no game breaking ability or no real point of difference.

It would be nice if all of our back three really offered a solid threat but with Freddie seemingly being nailed on at 15 it puts even more attacking emphasis on our 11 and 14.

I feel Watson offers that with his pace and footwork (although she is creeping up) and really feel like we need more than Malins et al on the other wing.

But all of the above is 100% limited by what ball they get given.

 

[BPM]

Hansen's a good player but he's also lucky to be playing in a side with a clear plan and functioning half backs and centres. Few wingers, and definitely not ours, have that luxury. And if the structure's not there then ordinary won't cut it and you're more in to rabbit out of a hat time. That's why I think Borthwick's so far bought in to Arundell.

100%. I'm not expecting miracles, but I do hope that Borthwick can use the preparation time to get some properly functioning structures in place. In fact, I think 'functioning' is the operative word - I accept they're highly unlikely to be anything special, so I'll settle for something that functions. If we can do that, we have the opportunity to hone it across the pool stage.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Saracens Malins would be good, but he's yet to bring anywhere near that form to England (not allowed to play with freedom? Not got the confidence on the big stage? Knock on effect of the rest of the side misfiring? Who knows)

 

[Which Tyler]

Saracens Malins would be good, but he's yet to bring anywhere near that form to England (not allowed to play with freedom? Not got the confidence on the big stage? Knock on effect of the rest of the side misfiring? Who knows)

For me, he's out of position - which doesn't help.

Pick one of him or Stewart; but not both (or if you do have to have both, then Malins has the 23 shirt - which might mean we only need 1 FH starting )

 

[BPM]

I don't think it's as simple as that though. Both are best at 15 but in entirely different ways.

If it's a choice between the two then, I really no it's that much of a contest. Steward didn't have a good 6 Nations, but he has shown a level of performance at test level that Malins simply hasn't. Having coached Steward at Tigers (and used him pretty well), I'd like to think Borthwick knows his game well enough to get the best out of him.

Re. Malins, he's not even first choice 15 at Saracens so while I agree it's his best position, I just don't think he's a serious challenger to Steward for that shirt. Right now, it feels like he's a winger/utility player for England and no more than that. I do like him and I think he's useful, but he shouldn't be starter IMO.