England 2021/22

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Hopefully he gets some coaching tips from the Japanese coaches.

 

[Mr Burns]

Dimes saying that Hill will focus on number 8

Don't really understand that move, he looks a perfect blindside option (6'5, good tackler and lineout option plus the workrate). England have a surfeit of open sides and 8s now but in terms of excellent blindsides I feel like it's a bit more lean.

Openside: T Curry, Underhill, J Willis, Ludlam, Earl, Ludlow, B Curry, Kenningham
No. 8: Simmonds, Dombrandt, Vunipola, Barbeary, Chick, T Willis, Harding
Blindside: Lawes, Chessum (?), Martin, Hill, Shields (?)

Obviously you can shift a few of the openside guys around but not seeing many guys who are happy to do the unflashy grunt work

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Nice to know that after another poor 6 Nations our head coach has got his priorities right.

England coach Eddie Jones resumes advisory role with Japanese club side

England coach Eddie Jones is "hard at work" in his role with Suntory Sungoliath following another disappointing Six Nations.

www.bbc.co.uk

In practical terms it probably makes very little difference.

But the optics.

Don't really understand that move, he looks a perfect blindside option (6'5, good tackler and lineout option plus the workrate). England have a surfeit of open sides and 8s now but in terms of excellent blindsides I feel like it's a bit more lean.

Openside: T Curry, Underhill, J Willis, Ludlam, Earl, Ludlow, B Curry, Kenningham
No. 8: Simmonds, Dombrandt, Vunipola, Barbeary, Chick, T Willis, Harding
Blindside: Lawes, Chessum (?), Martin, Hill, Shields (?)

Obviously you can shift a few of the openside guys around but not seeing many guys who are happy to do the unflashy grunt work

IDK. I'd have thought that virtually all those flankers are happy with the unglamorous stuff. You might have classified Earl as more of a ball player but even he's been topping the tackle count for Sarries.

I guess Hill might be thinking that the international zeitgeist is moving away from the big 6. As I mentioned the other day Jones will have a big decision on Lawes when Curry, Underhill and Willis are all fit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

EJ loves a lock at 6 - Lawes/Itoje and it looks like he's got Chessum in the crosshairs too
We may have theoretical numbers at 8 but realistically? No ones making that shirt their own atm
Vunipola and Chick out of the picture, Willis and Harding not in it (though Willis can't be far off), Simmonds and Dombrandt distinctly average 6N and Barbeary not trusted with gametime yet

Plus it might just be a club thing rather than international - Worcester've just signed this Aussie guy who looks like he'll be playing 6, and they're losing their starting 8

 

[BPM]

Agreed on most of the above.

Tom Willis is still struggling with concussion symptoms I think. Since he came back, he's had bit part roles from the bench and Barbeary started last weekend.

Harding is an interesting player, but I don't see him as being at the same level as Dombrandt, Simmonds or Willis right now.

Dombrandt is really maturing IMO. He's addressing a lot of the question marks around his appetite for the nitty gritty and even when he's not overly conspicuous in the loose, he's a menace at the breakdown and has significantly improved his defending.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dombrandt is really maturing IMO. He's addressing a lot of the question marks around his appetite for the nitty gritty and even when he's not overly conspicuous in the loose, he's a menace at the breakdown and has significantly improved his defending.

The depressing part is that that's all great but we know EJ will just send him down blind channels into 3 defenders on every phase
He has an idea of what he wants his 8 to do and that's what his 8s will do whether they're suited to it or not

 

[Which Tyler]

Tom Willis is still struggling with concussion symptoms I think. Since he came back, he's had bit part roles from the bench and Barbeary started last weekend.

Those two sentences really should be directly contradictory.
If still have ANY concussion symptoms, then you haven't passed your return to play protocols, and you go back a step and give it another go.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The depressing part is that that's all great but we know EJ will just send him down blind channels into 3 defenders on every phase
He has an idea of what he wants his 8 to do and that's what his 8s will do whether they're suited to it or not

TBF someone has to do it on the whole.
Curry is the best back rower and he can't do it.
Lawes is the second best back rower and whilst he's ok at carrying it isn't his bread and butter

Leaves really the number 8.

Dombrandt is a great player but out of all the starting pack I would say he's currently the first I would drop.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

TBF someone has to do it on the whole.
Curry is the best back rower and he can't do it.
Lawes is the second best back rower and whilst he's ok at carrying it isn't his bread and butter

Leaves really the number 8.

Dombrandt is a great player but out of all the starting pack I would say he's currently the first I would drop.

That's a matter of balance in the back row and the pack as a whole. Brick wall stuff isn't Dombrandt's forte (although he always looks like he should be better at it), but as you say someone's got to do it.

Dombrandt's worth persevering with and the flip side of being the least secure is to give him the game time and experience he needs.

 

[higgik]

The depressing part is that that's all great but we know EJ will just send him down blind channels into 3 defenders on every phase
He has an idea of what he wants his 8 to do and that's what his 8s will do whether they're suited to it or not

The Complete issue with EJ. He has a vision of how he wants to play, but does not have the depth of quality for those roles.
He does want a charging 8, who can also offload, so BV fitted this role perfectly, but a BV light is not working and all the others at that level, are not contact players. For their clubs they play significantly different roles and have others to do the hard yards.
Only Barbeary has a similar skill set, but as said is still too inexperienced to play.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The thing as well is Billy V at his prime was not just good at that role, he was a freak. Most 8's and even most players cannot do that. Building the tactics of a position around a single freakish player is ridiculously stupid, particularly when you don't have them available. We haven't moved on at 12 because we have a little sign saying "reserved for Tuilagi" on it and we aren't developing our game at 8 because Jones has decided that Billy V or similar approved is the only type of 8 we can have. Simple fact is, more often than not, we do not have the players available to fulfil those roles so Jones needs to adapt the roles.

We don't need 1 player who does very heavy carrying, having multiple players who are good carriers is better than 1 who is fantastic and the rest average. Curry and Underhill are not brick wall runners but they have both got better at making metres in traffic. Genge has shown he can do it and just needs to get it on international level. Itoje has upped his carrying ability too. Hell even when you are sending a player into set defences, you should still try to get them into contact in a favourable way (at speed, hitting shoulders etc). Intentionally targeting the most solid part of a defence when, with a little effort, you can manipulate defences a bit more and cause more havoc is insane. You can't draw defenders in to a place where they already are and there is no point drawing in defenders if all you do is keep smashing into set defences then kicking. You're not making any more space in the back field and you're not exploiting the space that could be made out wide, so just what is being achieved?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm not sure any player should be running at brick walls at international level, it serves no purpose and creates slow ball.

 

[Reiser99]

The point is to win the collision to force the defensive line to readjust and generate quick ball. The aim might also be to tie in defenders, but even then it shouldn't just be running into a brick wall. By winning the collision it should give you quick ball and create gaps in the defensive line to exploit. As you continue to win collisions you create more and more space. That might be in the midfield where a gap has opened between those in the middle and those on the wing. It might be on the edge as the defence has bunched up and got narrow or it might be in the form of a mismatch when forwards are out of position.

The advantage Tuilagi and Billy had was that they would pretty much win the collision regardless of how the ball was passed to them *cough Ben Youngs cough.* However, that is beyond most players and most need to take the ball at pace, targeting a weak shoulder or a gap.

The problem is EJ got used to having ball carriers that could make ground regardless or their other advantage was to draw in players to create gaps. However, this was a luxury afforded to players who are world class and is not a realistic expectation of most players. However, Jones has stuck to this idea that having 1 or 2 big ball carriers is enough, when it isn't.

A perfect example is Marchant who made food ground using space. Or at the weekend Hutchinson and Dingwall exploiting gaps in the Bristol line.

There is truth to saying EJ is playing a bad version of Warrenball because he desperately wants big carriers to make easy yards, but he doesn't have the players to do it, unlike Gatland who had the players and made it work.

The other issue is our attack is not good enough to exploit the few gaps and space that is made. Overall our attack is so one dimensional it's easy to read. EJ always bangs on about percentage rugby, but when the opposition are just as good or better you need more than just playing to numbers. You need passion and sparks. That's what's missing. England look like a team and have done for a while who stick to script and play by numbers and percentages. Yes they will win games, but they won't win trophies because you need something more. The one game they really did was the SF against NZ and that was the exception, not the rule.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So many good points above.

Lots of ways to navigate heavy traffic but some heavy duty direct ball carriers undoubtedly help. But the load has to be shared, if X is pigeonholed as the team carrier modern defences will counter that easily enough.

As for the number of players who take the ball at low pace or static, it's shocking. Partly down to SH indecision but it's not helped by big forwards just standing there gurning not really offering themselves as viable options. This really is as basic a skill as executing an overlap and we never see professionals butcher those, do we?

 

[MarkyH]

Who's really the ideal choice to coach? Doesn't matter who, if you could choose anyone who would you go for?

Head - Farrell
Def - Edwards
Scrum - Cockers
Forwards & Lineout - Borthwick
Attack - Scott Wisemantel (we scored tries with him around)

I realise this is just for fun, and no way could we get head coaches to just run our pack and lineout. I'd also be tempted with Lancaster again, but not a team with Farrell, one or the other.

Also researching this, I had no idea Shaun Edwards was in a long term relationship with Heather Small. Gnarly northern rugby lad with a glamourous pop icon. Love it.

 

[ncurd]

I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face no A. Farrell until O. Farrell retries.

 

[Reiser99]

I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face no A. Farrell until O. Farrell retries.

Yeah, but who do you think will then be attack coach?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah, but who do you think will then be attack coach?

Which incidentally will also be the kicking coach.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Who's really the ideal choice to coach? Doesn't matter who, if you could choose anyone who would you go for?

Head - Farrell
Def - Edwards
Scrum - Cockers
Forwards & Lineout - Borthwick
Attack - Scott Wisemantel (we scored tries with him around)

I realise this is just for fun, and no way could we get head coaches to just run our pack and lineout. I'd also be tempted with Lancaster again, but not a team with Farrell, one or the other.

Also researching this, I had no idea Shaun Edwards was in a long term relationship with Heather Small. Gnarly northern rugby lad with a glamourous pop icon. Love it.

Farrell's done a very good job with Ire but I see Edwards as more natural head coach material. Post 23 I'd be surprised if he wouldn't want to give that a lash after being a sergeant major for so long.

Ringmastering Leinster in green shirts is comparatively easy whereas Edwards has clearly improved Fra and played a big part in Wal overachieving in the Gatland years. He's not had the no1 job yet but I've seen nothing to suggest he couldn't do it and everything to suggest he could.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What about Baxter….if and a big if he is in the set up with some other coaches? Maybe as director of rugby with a head coach underneath?

I think we need a good premiership coach in the set up.