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England 2021/22

There are a few decent candidates but all have pros and cons.

I think Baxter would be good in a DoR type capacity. I have question marks about the brand of rugby Exeter have played under him, but he does seem to be capable of getting buy-in/loyalty from his coaching team and players. If he was paired with the right people in specialist coaching roles, that could be an interesting set up. On the other hand, he has 0 experience in a test environment and I wonder whether his approach could translate across to the more 'window' based access you get in international rugby?

Similarly, I would like to see what Shaun Edwards could do as a head coach. As @Old Hooker said, he has a lot of qualities that suggest he could do it and he has been a crucial part of top test sides. It's still a risk though. Being a world class defence coach is one thing, running the whole gig, particularly under the microscope of being England's head coach is quite another.
 
For me Baxter wouldn't work. Similar to Olyy above he gets his squad to play a specific way with everyone doing their job and practising to execute those tactics. He would struggle to do that with players from multiple clubs and only a short time with them.
 
BPM said:
On the other hand, he has 0 experience in a test environment and I wonder whether his approach could translate across to the more 'window' based access you get in international rugby?
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He has literally 0 experience of anything outside of Exeter as player or coach let alone the international scene. I should think he goes on holiday to Exmouth. Not to denigrate what he's done at Chiefs at all, but that's really too narrow experience for the international game which presents very different coaching and man management challenges. Borthwick, Farrell and Edwards have all taken themselves outside their natural comfort zone at times and will be much the better for it.
 
It is unfair to say Baxter wouldn't work because of X reason but then also want Shaun Edwards who also hasn't got head coach experience.

I'm not saying I 100% Baxter but think as a good English coach he should be involved in the progression to the RFU, If that means we hire him and send him France for example then so be it but I don't really buy in to this difference experience BS.

What we need is a good attack coach, a good defence coach, a good head coach and a good director of rugby. They should have the mixed set of experience between them rather than one having all the tracking experience.

On a separate note how's Joe Worsley (the Jamie Roberts slayer) getting on?
 
I don't want Edwards as HC either tbh, Farrell would be my first choice
Does Edwards definitely want to be a HC? I feel like he'd have had no shortage of offers when he left Wales, but chose to be a defence coach again

Worsley definitely one to keep an eye on - been quietly grafting away in France for a number of years
 
Worsley did a bit of TV work and was definitely coming out with insights that you don't normally hear. Maybe that's just the difference between a coach and a pundit but he's definitely a thinker about the game.

I'm not saying I definitely want Edwards as the next head coach, his Ire experience means Farrell is more oven ready, but that I think he may have a higher ceiling. Who knows if he fancies a top job, but he must be getting to the point of "been there, done that" as a D coach. Feels like he ought to be involved in the Eng set up one way or another.

I don't think the different experience stuff is BS, it's crucial. In any line of work. Your leadership team needs diverse experience - and that may include some failures along the way, those are what you learn most from. Did Hansen and Henry come to the NH because they liked the idea of Cardiff in February or to better themselves as coaches?
 
Old Hooker said:
He has literally 0 experience of anything outside of Exeter as player or coach let alone the international scene. I should think he goes on holiday to Exmouth. Not to denigrate what he's done at Chiefs at all, but that's really too narrow experience for the international game which presents very different coaching and man management challenges. Borthwick, Farrell and Edwards have all taken themselves outside their natural comfort zone at times and will be much the better for it.
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To be fair, that's what I was getting at re. the cons for Baxter.

But by the same token, you could argue Edwards' comfort zone is defence coach. Yes, he's challenged himself by going to France and is showing that he can deliver in a challenging and unfamiliar environment, but his remit hasn't really changed. I think it was a brave move to join up with France and he's 100% proved that he can make an impact on players who he doesn't know/might have been sceptical of his ideas/methods. However, I'm not sure it's shown that much more than we already knew - e.g. he's brilliant defence coach.

I agree on Borthwick. As I said a week or so ago, if he can win something with Tigers, he'll have pretty much ticked all the boxes as well as being someone who is known/liked by the RFU.
 
I think Edwards wise the France job has been a step up rather than take a bunch of average players and make them punch above their weight he's now taken a very talented team with obvious defensive issues and got their buy in and might get them to a world cup victory. He's also shown his defensive mentality doesn't preclude an attacking game. The real question is before the England top job where would we like him to make the next progression? It feel like if we don't want him he might go to another top nation and be successful with them.

I think with Edwards its a case of does he even want the job rather than is he ready for it.
 
Is Farrell doing much. Or should Leo Cullen be getting the plaudits??
 
When we talk about coaches in whatever capacity we should probably step back and think what actually makes a good coach.

Let's look at a defence coach, but could apply to any role.

In terms of technical ability, coming up with new ideas etc they all analyse things to death and there's probably not much more than a fag paper between all the best ones on this. Might account for 30% of the role.

Coming up with the right ideas / tactics is obviously important, but in many respects the easy part. The harder part is all about man management - getting the players to buy into you and your ideas and then executing them. That's all about clear thinking, communication skills, gravitas, work ethic and probably a dose of perfectionism. It's here that I think Edwards really excels. If you think that's all a bit airy fairy, it's really not. And those are transferable skills.
 
Edwards has head coach experiance so don't know where that has come from, he was Wasps head coach for like 6 years and won Europe with them.

with Borthwick my biggest thing is
He's a guy who clearly doesn't like media and he's yet to have real hardships with Tigers yet, so how would he deal with the pressure England gets with loses?
 
Old Hooker said:
Worsley did a bit of TV work and was definitely coming out with insights that you don't normally hear. Maybe that's just the difference between a coach and a pundit but he's definitely a thinker about the game.

I'm not saying I definitely want Edwards as the next head coach, his Ire experience means Farrell is more oven ready, but that I think he may have a higher ceiling. Who knows if he fancies a top job, but he must be getting to the point of "been there, done that" as a D coach. Feels like he ought to be involved in the Eng set up one way or another.

I don't think the different experience stuff is BS, it's crucial. In any line of work. Your leadership team needs diverse experience - and that may include some failures along the way, those are what you learn most from. Did Hansen and Henry come to the NH because they liked the idea of Cardiff in February or to better themselves as coaches?
Click to expand...
No I meant it's BS that you couldn't get Baxter in unless he has 'other' experience, as the whole point of a coaching group is to be diverse. So no need for Baxter to have all different experiences if others do in the group (although it would probably help improve him).


Doesn't Borthwick need to win more than just 1 ***le to prove his head coach ability? That's the standard we've used on here for other coaches. The 'prove it over time, rather than just one season' thinking?
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
No I meant it's BS that you couldn't get Baxter in unless he has 'other' experience, as the whole point of a coaching group is to be diverse. So no need for Baxter to have all different experiences if others do in the group (although it would probably help improve him).


Doesn't Borthwick need to win more than just 1 ***le to prove his head coach ability? That's the standard we've used on here for other coaches. The 'prove it over time, rather than just one season' thinking?
Click to expand...
Personally it's definitely too early for Borthwick. I would like him to show he has consistency as well. However, the fact that he's got international experience with Japan and England puts him ahead of Baxter for me. As I said Baxter feels like a very niche coach and works well in a club environment. For me he hasn't shown the flexibility that you need when bringing in players from different clubs.
 
I think Tigs hit the nail on the head about being able to deal with the rough. He was talking about Borthwick but Baxter has barely ever had to cope with any real criticism.

On McGuigan it probably depends on what's been said about the Irish situation. But if he was willing to stay here and declare for Eng then it's a ludicrous oversight.
 
McGuigans contract is up in the summer, and we have had diddly from the Falcons about any players renewals.

Earlier there was a big rumour going that Munster wanted him....

Falcons have said they will start release info about renewals next week and week after...
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
It is unfair to say Baxter wouldn't work because of X reason but then also want Shaun Edwards who also hasn't got head coach experience.
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That's a fair bit of false equivalence there (not to mention untrue, albeit a while ago).
Edwards has experience of Rugby League (4 clubs, 3 nations) & in Rugby Union he's been assistant and head coach at Wasps, and assistant coach at Wales, France and the Lions. He's been coaching for 20 years.
Baxter has experience of Rugby Union at Exeter, Exeter and Exeter. He's been coaching for 12 years.
 
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