Chariot repair shop - What to fix and change

[Peat]

I can only speak for myself, but my criticisms of Croft are nothing to do with his positioning, it's his lack of ability in the tight.
He is almost completely ineffectual at the breakdown and smashing it up. Nothing to do with lack of effort, he is just built in completely the wrong way for it.

I completely agree with j'nuh that the national side should play to the strengths of the top players in the premiership.

Which is fair enough. I completely and totally disagree, but you are judging him on the same criteria and we shall have to agree to differ until such point one of his coaches allows him near the tight for long enough for us to have a proper internet shitfight over it Gatty would do it actually. Croft for the Lions!

edit:

I'm not actually even criticising Croft for a lack of work there. If picked, I'd expect Faletau/Heaslip to get through enough work to cover for him. I don't mind one backrower playing a little more loose. (Just, for England, let's not play Croft AND Morgan. One will do. And I'd prefer it to be Morgan.) It's just that there are some outstanding flankers around. The flanker shirts has to be the hardest contended positions in the Lions squad. Is he really in the top 4-5 of: SOB, Warburton, Lydiate, Ryan Jones, Tipuric, Brown, Rennie (should be back soon?), Wood, Robshaw, ...?

I know, I just more went off on one because it had been on my mind. I find it a fairly surprising assumption as well, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did happen, if you see what I mean. Because there is some logic for it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't know why people are touting Benjamin - he's not played rugby in a year, and doesn't look to be playing anytime soon either.

I'm a big big fan of his, but hell (rightly) be way down the pecking order by now.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[j'nuh]

Yeah, I was more thinking in the long-run tbh (at earliest the AIs but more likely to be mid-2014). Benjamin does offer something different to the wingers we currently have though. As for being down the pecking order - well, England are very hesitant to want to pick from the current batch of wingers. If he can kick off where he was before injury, he might quickly rise up that list.

 

[j'nuh]

I have been thinking... Burns has worked on a lot of areas of his game for this season, and has come out with answers to a lot of the questions people raised about certain areas of his game. His creativity and running is obviously where he makes his name and his attacking kicks (especially chips) are fantastic. His penalty kicking is about the quality of Farrell's now (both players are usually decent, both are prone to the odd game of poor kicking). His tactical kicking is improved on last year and isn't an area to be concerned about. The only area where I think Farrell has a bit of an edge is in tackling.

My question: could we cover for this area of Burns' game by making him move to the wing when in defense? Italy did similar with Orquera with decent results. We could also then ditch the fullback-on-the-wing experiment, since Burns can drop back to support the fullback, instead of Brown.

Speaking of Brown - one asset of his that everyone loves to talk about is his massive left boot. Distance is mostly only useful when you're trying to find touch. Being left-footed and on the left wing kind of makes that asset useless. If he's to be on the wing, surely the right wing would make more sense...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Burns may not be Wilko on defence but he's nowhere near bad enough to warrant needing to hide him elsewhere ala Quade Cooper etc.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Burns just needs to get a bit bigger, he's currently built like a heroin addict. Glos are pretty good in terms of getting players in condition and keeping them there from what I can tell...
Having a quick openside like Kvesic should cover that channel pretty well though

Were you at last night's game Olyy? would be good to know how Thomas coped with the Bath scrum, not very well by the sound of it?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Were you at last night's game Olyy? would be good to know how Thomas coped with the Bath scrum, not very well by the sound of it?

I wasn't - Was going to but the snow put me off (apparently the roads are pretty bad between where I live and Salford).
However I did listen to the commentary and watch the live stream Bath put on - he actually did very well. Think he gave away one, maybe two, penalties but won just as many. Arguably the best scrummaging performance I've seen him put in, especially considering his opposition. Positioning looks improved, and having Ostrikov in the 2nd row really helps. I was very nervous about him vs James, going into the game, but was impressed. Rowntree is some coach!

Dickinson also did a number on Dave Wilson, which was nice

Stuart Lancaster was at the game specifically to watch Thomas, as well (left when he was subbed), so it won't have harmed his England chances.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I was listening to the radio commentary, at least for the first half. I hope Lancaster wasn't ignoring the other other players like Attwood and Eastmond though...
Sounded like Attwood was having a good game until he came off injured. (maybe why Thomas found it a little easier after the first couple of scrums?)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It was the first few where Thomas had James under pressure - it was the 2nd half where James started to squeeze Thomas a bit and then he came off not long after (though, really, Thomas is only a 40-50minute player at the moment, as he's only 3 games back from about 7months out injured).

 

[Peat]

Bit of an edge undersells things. Farrell has a pretty substantial edge when it comes to defence. Hide him on the wing/full-back, he is out of position for turnovers.

And all good fly-halves frequently fall back to help, you still need your wings to play a big part, if your openside is doing your fly-half's tackling then he is not helping the outside backs which exposes them a lot, and you've got to question how much excess muscle he can stick on his frame without affecting his speed if he hasn't done so already - he's 22, he should have done a fair bit of conditioning. I am going to be watching his tackling very closely in Argentina, I have to say.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Freddie is 6ft2 and 80kgs, he could put on a considerable amount of weight before he could even be considered to be muscular. Even 2-3 kgs would help considerably, and could probably be done in a single pre-season.
That sort of increase should not affect his agility, if done properly (which it should be considering the setups he is in) and should increase his flat-track speed.

I wasn't suggesting that someone else should be making tackles for him, but having someone with the ability to get back should he be semi-boshed will hopefully discourage people from targeting that channel.

Farrell is pretty good at holding out attacking rucks where we are about to concede a turnover just long enough for someone to get the ball away. So I'd say it's his general physicality that he has over Burns rather than his tackling specifically. A bit like what Mike Phillips does for Wales, although not to quite the same extent.

 

[Peat]

I agree with you but with the big caveat - if it's that simple, why hasn't it been done already? Since it hasn't, I'm not holding out huge hopes.

And it won't discourage people from attacking his channel. It will encourage people. If they know that the back row are not drifting into the backline until they are sure nobody's attacking there/will get sucked in if there is a tackle, then go for it! Go for it like mad! Off set piece ball, you know that if you can get a couple of good yards and quick ball its the rest of your backline against their three defenders. That's dream land.

If Burns' defence is a liability - which is an if - it can't be patched totally. No matter what you do, you lose out somewhere else.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I didn't even realise Burns was regarded as a poor defender until this thread :huh:
I haven't watched Gloucester a massive amount this season, but I can't recall ever thinking he was poor. Will watch Gloucester's game when it goes up on the PremRugby site later, and keep an eye on him.

 

[j'nuh]

If Burns' defence is a liability - which is an if - it can't be patched totally. No matter what you do, you lose out somewhere else.

I don't know about that. Consider Halfpenny's transformation over the last couple of years. A bit more conditioning couldP also help add a little more pace to his running game, and give him a longer kicking range.

I do think that in spite of all this, Burns is definitely first-choice for me. Burns' defensive game can be covered for if necessary with an intelligent defensive system. But you cannot hide a fly-half who cannot attack. Most ball goes through their hands at first-receiver.

I didn't even realise Burns was regarded as a poor defender until this thread :huh:
I haven't watched Gloucester a massive amount this season, but I can't recall ever thinking he was poor. Will watch Gloucester's game when it goes up on the PremRugby site later, and keep an eye on him.

I don't think it's stupid bad, but I still sadly remember him being stepped by Andy Goode for a try last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NKqaXGtpAU#t=48s

(Although, looking back, I think Tindall stretches the line a little too much by being too far away from Burns, who rushes to fill the gap.)

I think he's prone to missing a few tackles. Telegraph has it at Burns has missed 21 in 75 tackles (28%), to Farrell's 9 in 49 (18%). Not entirely representative, since I reckon Farrell's got more support at Sarries, but I do think Farrell is a better defender.

As has been said, I think a bit more conditioning will help. He's a good stone and a bit lighter than Farrell, so I think some extra bulk might help him there. But I take that as a positive, because it shows that his defensive game will improve with the right conditioning, and that is weakest area imo. Also worth saying that a bit more lower body strength will help his penalty kicking too, so there are other benefits.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree with you but with the big caveat - if it's that simple, why hasn't it been done already? Since it hasn't, I'm not holding out huge hopes.

Oh it would have been done, that's why he's the weight he is now! I'm guessing he'll put on a couple of kilos the next time he has a month or more off.
The trouble is that guys who are in academies from a young age often don't get that much time to work on conditioning if they are playing all the time. It doesn't affect all of them because some don't need all that much time or effort in order to get into the best shape possible. Someone like Freddy has probably always been in demand for game-time in which ever age-group or level he's been playing at, so hasn't had that much downtime in which to hit the gym, and he needs more time than most because of his natural build.

I don't think Burns' defense is actually a weakness? He's just skinny, so most international teams will at least feel him out with a couple of runs down his channel.

 

[Peat]

Fair point there but I remain mildly skeptical.

And I've seen him miss a few tackles he really shouldn't have, and his missed tackles percentage is mildly alarming. An actual weakness? I'll wait to see him play for England before I decide, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was on Lancaster's mind.

I think his inability to be fit before the start of this 6N was probably more significant though. If he's good enough, we'll accommodate him.

 

[Patchey]

Can we have some form of rule banning talk about Armitage every time an England squad is discussed? It is pointless to consider him while he's still at Toulon because the RFU/England management policy on foreign based players is so clearly set against him playing. When we have so many good to excellent back rows playing in England there is never going to be the 'exception circumstance' required for a French based back row, however good he's supposed to be, getting on the plane. Considering the timing of the tour which, I think, clashes with the Top 14 final just like the South Africa tour last year, even if England did pick Armitage Toulon aren't going to release him.

Rant over.

 

[Peat]

While you're on about it, why no JSD...

Lancaster has said exceptional circumstances are down to him. I suspect Armitage's exclusion is down to Lancaster not liking what he says - I suspect mainly in terms of fitness.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Recently the whole issue of France-based player's fitness has come to light, I don't think that most people were aware of it before this 6N.
Armitage is now an important enough player for Toulon that he could probably get guarantees that he be released for England written into his contract, which I think is the other issue as far as the management are concerned?

 

[Patchey]

True. I think the combo of fitness and attitude (perceived or otherwise) mean that Armitage isn't necessarily a better choice than the likes of Kvesic et al anyway. Like I said we've got so much back row talent in England at the moment and I think Armitage wouldn't even be guaranteed a place in the squad if he was playing in the Premiership.


On another not, anyone currently watching the Wasps game? Dixon for 9? Varndel for a recall?