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Chariot repair shop - What to fix and change
- Thread starter Ragey Erasmus
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Variety of sources - I tend to use http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html and http://www.espnscrum.com/ most; occasionally use this http://www.testrugby.com/
Not always accurate, but mostly so, and good to get you thinking.
Not always accurate, but mostly so, and good to get you thinking.
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Lets not panic just yet we got done over by a team who put in an excellent performance but...
Our line speed in defense got slower the longer the tournament went on and if i am honest I would say it appeared we played better in the last 3 games last year than we did this year but I think thats only because we were an unknown quantity last year and people had us figured out a bit more this time around.
I would like to see changes in the backline with Ashton going and either Foden/Wade or May coming in and even possibly dropping Goode. 36 needs to start coming in now as Barriet has lost his importance now our defense is in Question.
Half backs keep Youngs and Farrell but drop Flood and Care (sorry had his chance and more than blow it).
The Forwards I am not overly concerned about our first choice pack would be: 1.Corbs 2. Youngs 3. Cole 4.Lunchbury 5.Parling 6.Wood 7.Robshaw and 8.Morgan which is as good as any in the NH and our options on the bench are ok with Vinopolo x2, Lawes, Hartley, Croft, Haskell would like to see a few younger backrow players coming in and a better back up at tight head but lets not get carried away SL and his team have done a good job so far lets not forget it.
Our line speed in defense got slower the longer the tournament went on and if i am honest I would say it appeared we played better in the last 3 games last year than we did this year but I think thats only because we were an unknown quantity last year and people had us figured out a bit more this time around.
I would like to see changes in the backline with Ashton going and either Foden/Wade or May coming in and even possibly dropping Goode. 36 needs to start coming in now as Barriet has lost his importance now our defense is in Question.
Half backs keep Youngs and Farrell but drop Flood and Care (sorry had his chance and more than blow it).
The Forwards I am not overly concerned about our first choice pack would be: 1.Corbs 2. Youngs 3. Cole 4.Lunchbury 5.Parling 6.Wood 7.Robshaw and 8.Morgan which is as good as any in the NH and our options on the bench are ok with Vinopolo x2, Lawes, Hartley, Croft, Haskell would like to see a few younger backrow players coming in and a better back up at tight head but lets not get carried away SL and his team have done a good job so far lets not forget it.
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Just want to point out Attwood's tackle and lineout stats in the premiership:
The Telegraph has him down as having the 2nd highest LO's won on own ball (and highest of the EQP's) with 64.
He's also the 5th highest tackler.
Put that together with his scrummaging prowess and you have an absolute set piece rock to put into your pack.
The Telegraph has him down as having the 2nd highest LO's won on own ball (and highest of the EQP's) with 64.
He's also the 5th highest tackler.
Put that together with his scrummaging prowess and you have an absolute set piece rock to put into your pack.
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Part of the problem with Tuilagi is he's not being used effectively and sparingly. He's a powerful runner, but England just keep on shipping the ball to him & hoping for the best. A defence will quickly pick up on this and double-team him. He needs to be used as a dummy runner for example or running certain lines and angles. Like his try against Wales (see below) someone this big and quick will be nigh on impossible to stop running back in at an angle with the defence drifting out. But just running straight and hard ain't going to work against solid tacklers.
http://youtu.be/_oaUGJfUepY
[video=youtube_share;_oaUGJfUepY]http://youtu.be/_oaUGJfUepY[/video]
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I agree with what you said but in the first three games he only made 3 passes! If thats the case he needs to seriously work on his distribution, infact going on the lions tour with o'driscol could be the best thing ever for him.
But what happens if we go to argentia with this backlline and they work so well and gell together?
9 Simpson
10 Burns
11 Wade
12 12 trees
13 Lowe/ Tompkins/ Daly
14 May
15 Brown/ Foden
I wouldn't want farrell, barritt, tuiagi back!
Interesting article here, looks like there may be some change...
http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/179047.html
http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/179047.html
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I've noticed that the media area running with "Rowntree/Lancaster question refereeing performance vs Wales".
I watched that interview this morning before work, and they've twisted it for their headlines. Rowntree said that Wales fully deserved the win, he just wants more explanation from referees on scrummaging penalties as it's hard to improve a scrum if they don't specifically state what went wrong etc. and he doesn't know where half the penalties vs Wales came from so he doesn't know what to tell the players.
Media gonna media, I guess. I look forward (....NAHT) to the WUMs taking those headlines and pointing out the arrogant English again.
I watched that interview this morning before work, and they've twisted it for their headlines. Rowntree said that Wales fully deserved the win, he just wants more explanation from referees on scrummaging penalties as it's hard to improve a scrum if they don't specifically state what went wrong etc. and he doesn't know where half the penalties vs Wales came from so he doesn't know what to tell the players.
Media gonna media, I guess. I look forward (....NAHT) to the WUMs taking those headlines and pointing out the arrogant English again.
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Sky News/Sports News?
Whatever's on the TV in the breakroom at work
Whatever's on the TV in the breakroom at work
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This is really quite a pointless post, but; Robshaw is not a good ball carrier, he just carries the ball a lot.
I keep seeing people saying how good a ball carrier he is, when he just falls to the ground when he is tackled, making no ground or allowing for quick ball. It's simply conjecture, based on the number of times he carries the ball.
It's fair to say he doesn't lose the ball in contact very much, but that isn't all that impressive given that he is practically standing still most of the time.
He is generally a bit of a jack of all (flanker) trades, his main asset is his massive workrate, with few errors. I'm not trying to be dismissive of that in any way, I just do not understand why people are trying to make him out to be irreplaceable.
I keep seeing people saying how good a ball carrier he is, when he just falls to the ground when he is tackled, making no ground or allowing for quick ball. It's simply conjecture, based on the number of times he carries the ball.
It's fair to say he doesn't lose the ball in contact very much, but that isn't all that impressive given that he is practically standing still most of the time.
He is generally a bit of a jack of all (flanker) trades, his main asset is his massive workrate, with few errors. I'm not trying to be dismissive of that in any way, I just do not understand why people are trying to make him out to be irreplaceable.
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Actually Robshaw isn't a great ball carrier but he's hardly bad either. He is able to push past the gain line and help us maintain control. Maybe with our current setup we need him to do more but with a new team, that may be fine for him.
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I didn't say he was bad, I was just refuting people's (from around the web) statement that he is a good ball carrier. You can trust him to make a metre or so with most carries, but the way he takes the ball into contact allows the tackler to contest for the ball quite easily meaning that generally he doesn't produce any quick ball.
His style of play works really well for quins because of the pace they play at. It means he doesn't have to be all that good at any particular skill, he just needs to hit the rucks and take the ball in because the opposition will be tired out by the pace at which his team are playing.
His style of play works really well for quins because of the pace they play at. It means he doesn't have to be all that good at any particular skill, he just needs to hit the rucks and take the ball in because the opposition will be tired out by the pace at which his team are playing.
I think the emphasis should be completely on attack. We know England can put out a good defensive back line, coached well by Andy Farrell. We know, as well, that unless England start converting chances and scoring tries they won't win against strong sides. I also don't think that Lancaster will be too conservative; everyone else will be watching the Lions, so he might as well use the opportunity. In the past he's shown he's not afraid of experimenting.
So, given the current EPS and Saxons, and expecting Cole, both Youngs brothers, Parling, Wood, Robshaw, Tuilagi, and Farrell going off with the Lions, I'd hope to see the following start against Argentina:
1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley (c) -- Old head. Might not get binned this time...
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Croft -- There for the line-out and, hopefully, have a greater effect in a more attacking team.
7. Kvesic -- Hopefully takes to international rugby like a duck to water and moves Robshaw into the 6 shirt. Makes up for Croft standing on the wing.
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph -- Maybe Daly, but I think Joseph hasn't had a proper chance yet.
14. Wade
15. Brown
16. Gray/Buchanan
17. Doran-Jones/Knight/Thomas?
18. Vunipola/Marler -- Don't think Marler is as bad a scrummager as is being made out, but I haven't seen much of the loose work he's supposed to make up for it with.
19. Robson -- Choose the least bad, really. Don't rate any of the Saxons locks.
20. B. Vunipola -- Would like to see Fraser, but 8 is currently barren compared to all other positions.
21. Simpson -- Put an end to the aerial ping-pong against the Wolfhounds, starting the break that lead to the Fraser try.
22. Flood -- Ford not ready, option of experience should the youngsters in the backs lose their heads.
23. Eastmond -- Utility and class.
Add to that Catt having full rein in the backs and England should try and put another 60 points on the BaaBaas, and aim to score three or more in each game against Argentina. Cobble the remains to play the midweek games however you want.
So, given the current EPS and Saxons, and expecting Cole, both Youngs brothers, Parling, Wood, Robshaw, Tuilagi, and Farrell going off with the Lions, I'd hope to see the following start against Argentina:
1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley (c) -- Old head. Might not get binned this time...
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Croft -- There for the line-out and, hopefully, have a greater effect in a more attacking team.
7. Kvesic -- Hopefully takes to international rugby like a duck to water and moves Robshaw into the 6 shirt. Makes up for Croft standing on the wing.
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph -- Maybe Daly, but I think Joseph hasn't had a proper chance yet.
14. Wade
15. Brown
16. Gray/Buchanan
17. Doran-Jones/Knight/Thomas?
18. Vunipola/Marler -- Don't think Marler is as bad a scrummager as is being made out, but I haven't seen much of the loose work he's supposed to make up for it with.
19. Robson -- Choose the least bad, really. Don't rate any of the Saxons locks.
20. B. Vunipola -- Would like to see Fraser, but 8 is currently barren compared to all other positions.
21. Simpson -- Put an end to the aerial ping-pong against the Wolfhounds, starting the break that lead to the Fraser try.
22. Flood -- Ford not ready, option of experience should the youngsters in the backs lose their heads.
23. Eastmond -- Utility and class.
Add to that Catt having full rein in the backs and England should try and put another 60 points on the BaaBaas, and aim to score three or more in each game against Argentina. Cobble the remains to play the midweek games however you want.
j'nuh
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ESPN actually thinks Tom Croft is going to be a Lion? :mellow:
Anyway, I'm worried that at this point the squad will be tinkered with, rather than the wholesale tactical and personnel changes I'd have liked.
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That's my worry too.
At the same time as Lancaster (or whoever) is in charge and it's not a democracy, he should really take into account the style of rugby that England supporters want their team to play.
That being an attacking one, a lot of the current players simply don't have the capability to do that.
At the same time as Lancaster (or whoever) is in charge and it's not a democracy, he should really take into account the style of rugby that England supporters want their team to play.
That being an attacking one, a lot of the current players simply don't have the capability to do that.
j'nuh
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The other thing is that we want to play the watertight defense + 3-pointers, but I don't think we have the players, either in the EPS or otherwise, to achieve this. The Welsh backline is better in attack, but is also much better in defense too. We don't have the physicality in England to match them. Tuilagi and Benjamin are the only two really. But we do have plenty of pacemen and game-changers. Why not play to our strengths? Scrap the defense-first attitude and build a backline to be feared imo.
ESPN aren't the only ones who think that. Seen the Indie make the same assumption.
Lets not forget Gatland coaxed some very good performances out of him in 2009. He might well fancy doing the same again. Some of the traits he brings - lineout, raw pace - are one-offs in a way no one else in the back row can match. Given there are no consistently good lineout throwers available, other than Hartley, and that we will be playing on hard grounds against fast and expansive teams, those are important traits.
I've rewatched the first sixteen minutes or so of the Wales match again in very close detail. Croft did nothing, almost literally nothing. He was stood around outside centre for the most part, a planned support runner for ball that never came and a chaser for Farrell's long bombs. I can see why Croft doing nothing annoys people, but that's the coach's decision, not his. Tom Youngs was similar - a midfield ball carrier who only got one chance to do it in those minutes; Ritchie Gray frequently takes up a similar position for Scotland, O'Mahony was heavily criticised for being so wide for Ireland. Hell, you probably remember the criticism of Ben Morgan for being under involved very well - not his fault the coaches have him covering the long kick so often, but on first glance it makes him look lazy. Croft was covering the odd kick while Ashton chase too. Remember Phillips quick tap, where he shrugged off Ashton? That run ended with him being hit by Croft, head on stood in the winger's space.
The use of forwards to cover the backs, particularly the back three, is going to continue unabated. I'm hoping rugby fans move forwards and accept this and stop blaming the players so chosen for being uninvolved - something I'm as guilty of as many. I've no problem with people looking at what Croft is doing and deciding they still don't like him (save thinking they're wrong), but far too many don't and just produce lazy stereotypes.
As for Robshaw - he is not an outstanding carrier, no. He is useful though. If he sees a gap, he will take it. He's a good carrier in traffic - one of the reasons his carrying stats look poor is because he does such a lot of this work - although I'd accept there are better. Compare him with O'Brien though - no one will doubt he is a good carrier - and they are frequently performing the same role of hitting up slow ball around the fringes. They are producing similar statistics.
The shame with both men is they have more to offer in a more open game letting others do more of the donkey work. Robshaw isn't an explosive carrier, but he does have very good hands. He's probably better at draw and pass/offload than either of our centres (not a high bar...) and can put support runners through very well. Marler's similar actually, lovely hands and awareness that are wasted with us at present. Remember Ashton's try against Scotland though? Created by Launchbury's big carry, in turn created by Marler drawing the defenders and then putting Launchbury through with excellent handling.
edit: I would be pretty angry actually if we threw away all the hard work on defence to turn us into a team that leaked. There needs to be a bigger emphasis on attack, I want us to be the complete team and that involves attack too, but Lancaster's task is blending that. I personally think that can be done with only a few personnel changes. I'm not saying no to a bigger revolution, but I do not think it's the only way.
Lets not forget Gatland coaxed some very good performances out of him in 2009. He might well fancy doing the same again. Some of the traits he brings - lineout, raw pace - are one-offs in a way no one else in the back row can match. Given there are no consistently good lineout throwers available, other than Hartley, and that we will be playing on hard grounds against fast and expansive teams, those are important traits.
I've rewatched the first sixteen minutes or so of the Wales match again in very close detail. Croft did nothing, almost literally nothing. He was stood around outside centre for the most part, a planned support runner for ball that never came and a chaser for Farrell's long bombs. I can see why Croft doing nothing annoys people, but that's the coach's decision, not his. Tom Youngs was similar - a midfield ball carrier who only got one chance to do it in those minutes; Ritchie Gray frequently takes up a similar position for Scotland, O'Mahony was heavily criticised for being so wide for Ireland. Hell, you probably remember the criticism of Ben Morgan for being under involved very well - not his fault the coaches have him covering the long kick so often, but on first glance it makes him look lazy. Croft was covering the odd kick while Ashton chase too. Remember Phillips quick tap, where he shrugged off Ashton? That run ended with him being hit by Croft, head on stood in the winger's space.
The use of forwards to cover the backs, particularly the back three, is going to continue unabated. I'm hoping rugby fans move forwards and accept this and stop blaming the players so chosen for being uninvolved - something I'm as guilty of as many. I've no problem with people looking at what Croft is doing and deciding they still don't like him (save thinking they're wrong), but far too many don't and just produce lazy stereotypes.
As for Robshaw - he is not an outstanding carrier, no. He is useful though. If he sees a gap, he will take it. He's a good carrier in traffic - one of the reasons his carrying stats look poor is because he does such a lot of this work - although I'd accept there are better. Compare him with O'Brien though - no one will doubt he is a good carrier - and they are frequently performing the same role of hitting up slow ball around the fringes. They are producing similar statistics.
The shame with both men is they have more to offer in a more open game letting others do more of the donkey work. Robshaw isn't an explosive carrier, but he does have very good hands. He's probably better at draw and pass/offload than either of our centres (not a high bar...) and can put support runners through very well. Marler's similar actually, lovely hands and awareness that are wasted with us at present. Remember Ashton's try against Scotland though? Created by Launchbury's big carry, in turn created by Marler drawing the defenders and then putting Launchbury through with excellent handling.
edit: I would be pretty angry actually if we threw away all the hard work on defence to turn us into a team that leaked. There needs to be a bigger emphasis on attack, I want us to be the complete team and that involves attack too, but Lancaster's task is blending that. I personally think that can be done with only a few personnel changes. I'm not saying no to a bigger revolution, but I do not think it's the only way.
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I can only speak for myself, but my criticisms of Croft are nothing to do with his positioning, it's his lack of ability in the tight.
He is almost completely ineffectual at the breakdown and smashing it up. Nothing to do with lack of effort, he is just built in completely the wrong way for it.
I completely agree with j'nuh that the national side should play to the strengths of the top players in the premiership.
He is almost completely ineffectual at the breakdown and smashing it up. Nothing to do with lack of effort, he is just built in completely the wrong way for it.
I completely agree with j'nuh that the national side should play to the strengths of the top players in the premiership.
j'nuh
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I'm not actually even criticising Croft for a lack of work there. If picked, I'd expect Faletau/Heaslip to get through enough work to cover for him. I don't mind one backrower playing a little more loose. (Just, for England, let's not play Croft AND Morgan. One will do. And I'd prefer it to be Morgan.) It's just that there are some outstanding flankers around. The flanker shirts has to be the hardest contended positions in the Lions squad. Is he really in the top 4-5 of: SOB, Warburton, Lydiate, Ryan Jones, Tipuric, Brown, Rennie (should be back soon?), Wood, Robshaw, ...?
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