Champions Cup 15/16 - Rd 6 Pool 1 (Oyonnax, Saracens, Toulouse, Ulster)

[LukeFitzgerald]

Payne should 100% start for Ireland against Wales, either at 13 or 15 (more than likely 13). We're going into that game with a raw enough team against a monster sized team. Our defence has to be spot on. McCloskey/Payne or Henshaw/Payne (if Henshaw will be back quick enough) are both defensively sound combinations. People constantly disregard Payne as a 13 because he doesn't run the length of the pitch 5 times every game and beat 9 defenders on his way. He offers so much to Ireland at 13 both defensively and offensively. People who say he shouldn't be at 13 are the same people who don't rate Heaslip at 8, nor Kearney at 15 as they can't understand how much they contribute to Ireland's success because they aren't doing the most unsubtle of plays. Kearney at fullback is one of the best defensive fullbacks in the world (in terms of both tackling and defensive positioning), great aerial threat and is a great attacker with ball in hand. People just constantly disregard Kearney due to some warped agenda and can't see how well he plays in every game, especially in attack.
Marshall and Gilroy were both electric today.
That Farrell Fail was the greatest moment of the CC this year

 

[Peat]

Sweet jesus, where did that come from? Warped agenda? Bloody hell.

I mean, I disagree with pretty much everything you've said there, but that doesn't mean I think you have an agenda or anything. Just an honest disagreement.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Sweet jesus, where did that come from? Warped agenda? Bloody hell.

I mean, I disagree with pretty much everything you've said there, but that doesn't mean I think you have an agenda or anything. Just an honest disagreement.

I never said you have an agenda. However, reading some of the very enlightened "criticisms" of Kearney from a lot people, which mainly consist of "Kearney is useless; he can't pass; all he can do is catch" etc etc, it's fairly obvious that most people have made up their mind about Kearney and completely dismiss him. I wouldn't be surprised if most of these people haven't watch Kearney play since 2013.

Which parts of my post do you disagree with?
So Payne shouldn't start against Wales?
Wales aren't a monster sized team?
There's no need to have a world class defence Wales?
A lot of people don't disregard Payne when his name is brought up to play at 13?
Payne offers nothing to Ireland at 13?
Kearney is poor defensively?
Marshall and Gilroy played terribly today?

 

[Peat]

Most people I've seen don't have an agenda. Some do, on both sides, but most just say what they see, albeit often through the filtered specs.

And I think Payne offers next to nothing in attack at 13, that Kearney is a ropey tackler, and that he's decent to good as an attacker at most. Can't say I rate Heaslip overly either.

 

[Maverick1987]

Most people I've seen don't have an agenda. Some do, on both sides, but most just say what they see, albeit often through the filtered specs.

And I think Payne offers next to nothing in attack at 13, that Kearney is a ropey tackler, and that he's decent to good as an attacker at most. Can't say I rate Heaslip overly either.

Agreed . If I was picking the Ireland team I'd pick McCloskey at 12, Marshall at 13, Payne at 15 and CJ Stander at 8 .....

 

[munstermuffin]

Just to add in I've been banging this drum for a while about Payne. He came to Ulster and earned his Ireland slot as a 15. Ulster suffered putting him 13 and it hurt Cave too. He should be 15 or nowhere. He's a world class 15.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Agreed with having Payne at 15 or no where. But I actually do rate Kearney a lot, very good under the high ball and I think he's very effective in defence and attack. Payne will offer you more of a creative threat but if Ireland play the territory game then I'd actually have Kearney over Payne.

Side note Heaslip is an alright player but CJ Stander has to be the guy. Pom-CJ-SOB is one scary back row when fit.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Please, spend one game watching just Heaslip in terms of his work rate and how he keeps the team together. He offers so much more than Stander, which isn't an insult to Stander considering how immense Stander has been. Stander got his ass handed to him by Heaslip in the Munster v Leinster game this year. He got absolutely dominated. Stander will start at 8 for Ireland eventually unless Conan or some other academy player comes through, but for now, Heaslip is head and shoulders above every other option.
I'll make this point again, the people who think Heaslip is "an alright player" or is average or does nothing in the game are people who fall into 3 categories:
1. They have this warped agenda I've mentioned and will never change their mind no matter how well Heaslip plays
2. Know nothing about rugby (in that the only thing that makes a number 8 "good" is if they run over 15 players per game and makes hundreds of yards in their carries)
3. Don't watch him play regularly enough or even make an effort to see what he offers to the team (which is where most people fall into)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Was its Ulster's call to have Payne @ 13 or IRFU?

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Agreed . If I was picking the Ireland team I'd pick McCloskey at 12, Marshall at 13, Payne at 15 and CJ Stander at 8 .....

I like your style. Picking a team that England can beat. A brand new centre partnership who never played under Schmidt, Payne playing at fullback for the first time under Schmidt where he's nowhere near as good as Kearney in the air which is where most of our attacks are launched and Stander at 8, displacing our vice captain and one of our most important players due to all of the donkey work/unseen work that he puts in which keeps the team functioning.

- - - Updated - - -

Was its Ulster's call to have Payne @ 13 or IRFU?

Payne played at 15 in the last 2 games he's played for Ulster. I'd say it was definitely Ulster's call in that regards considering they have better centre partnerships already established.

- - - Updated - - -

Most people I've seen don't have an agenda. Some do, on both sides, but most just say what they see, albeit often through the filtered specs.

And I think Payne offers next to nothing in attack at 13, that Kearney is a ropey tackler, and that he's decent to good as an attacker at most. Can't say I rate Heaslip overly either.

Payne @ 13 in attack and defense: http://www.the42.ie/analysis-jared-payne-ireland-rwc-2015-2359440-Sep2015/

Kearney is definitely not a "ropey tackler". He is an excellent defender:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZV2QPGjlzQ
http://www.the42.ie/rob-kearney-tackles-canada-ireland-rwc-15-2346802-Sep2015/

I know the above are very few examples, but if you bothered to watch Kearney play, you would see how reliable he is in defense.

The reason you don't rate Heaslip is because you probably don't watch enough of him or have any understanding to see what he offers his team.

 

[munstermuffin]

Please, spend one game watching just Heaslip in terms of his work rate and how he keeps the team together. He offers so much more than Stander, which isn't an insult to Stander considering how immense Stander has been. Stander got his ass handed to him by Heaslip in the Munster v Leinster game this year. He got absolutely dominated. Stander will start at 8 for Ireland eventually unless Conan or some other academy player comes through, but for now, Heaslip is head and shoulders above every other option.
I'll make this point again, the people who think Heaslip is "an alright player" or is average or does nothing in the game are people who fall into 3 categories:
1. They have this warped agenda I've mentioned and will never change their mind no matter how well Heaslip plays
2. Know nothing about rugby (in that the only thing that makes a number 8 "good" is if they run over 15 players per game and makes hundreds of yards in their carries)
3. Don't watch him play regularly enough or even make an effort to see what he offers to the team (which is where most people fall into)

Don't know what game you watched but how did Heaslip hand CJ his ass on plate?
Every pundit agreed it was evenly matched ( including bias Leinster pundits). Stats also showed that they were very even. So that point is complete and utter crap. Heaslip constantly gets his plaudits for "unseen work" but it's nonsense to think Heaslip has been playing well lately and bossed CJ. Watch the game. Neither got the better.

And I'd love to hear the stats that show Heaslip is above the rest because his metres made in tight aren't in top 5 of IRFU forwards, either is his Metres made or his carries. I watch him regularly and know rugby but don't think he's played well lately and isn't the same player as before. I'm not saying he should be dropped but if he lost his place to Stander it wouldn't be a shock either as both are on a level par. And anyone who knows and watched both players and knee their stats would know that.

On bottom I congratulate you on being the first person to say Rob Kearney is a good defender. He's consistently been the worst 1 on 1 tackler in Europe over past few years. Again I'd love to know how you make it out he's a good defender when statistically he isn't. Dave K get a lot of grief I've slated him myself but he's actually proven to be a very solid defender but Rob isn't.

 

[Peat]

Please, spend one game watching just Heaslip in terms of his work rate and how he keeps the team together. He offers so much more than Stander, which isn't an insult to Stander considering how immense Stander has been. Stander got his ass handed to him by Heaslip in the Munster v Leinster game this year. He got absolutely dominated. Stander will start at 8 for Ireland eventually unless Conan or some other academy player comes through, but for now, Heaslip is head and shoulders above every other option.
I'll make this point again, the people who think Heaslip is "an alright player" or is average or does nothing in the game are people who fall into 3 categories:
1. They have this warped agenda I've mentioned and will never change their mind no matter how well Heaslip plays
2. Know nothing about rugby (in that the only thing that makes a number 8 "good" is if they run over 15 players per game and makes hundreds of yards in their carries)
3. Don't watch him play regularly enough or even make an effort to see what he offers to the team (which is where most people fall into)

Or 4, they watch a lot of rugby, know a fair bit about rugby, and don't agree with you. Sometimes that's how it works. Please consider that.

I've watched plenty of Heaslip thanks. I get exactly what he offers the team. It's not, imo, the offering of a top 8 because he doesn't carry well enough on a consistent basis and these days, international 8s do plenty of dog work and carry. Pretty good international player, yup, which is not to be sniffed at, but in context of being the best in the world and a guy who propels his team to international trophies, I don't rate him.

You do. That's cool with me. I've no need to accuse you of having an agenda or not watching or not knowing the facts or whatever. Just a different opinion. I suggest you learn to accept different opinions without needing to throw around that sort of stuff.

 

[munstermuffin]

Unlucky Ulster. Just realised they are out. They went out fighting and unfortunate as I think they'd have just got better in knockouts if they kept everyone fit

 

[Peat]

Unlucky Ulster. Just realised they are out. They went out fighting and unfortunate as I think they'd have just got better in knockouts if they kept everyone fit

Oyonnax first half away sunk us. I knew we were out then really.

Shame, but for the better in that the league feels very obtainable this season. I can't say I particularly fancied going back to Sarries *again* anyway.

 

[JJFlash]

Toulouse were very disappointing finishing bottom in the pool.
Saracens won easily enough and the margin could and should have been more. Their defence was water tight but the Toulouse attack wasn't exactly threatening.
So we have the Top 14 left. Is being equal first in the Top 14 deceiving? I think it is, and unless a change of attitude is not forthcoming in the immediate future, they won't even make the play offs.
Next Saturday, however, is against Section paloise (who beat ST earlier in the season), and one would normally expect them to win comfortably, but then again.....

 

[FrenchFan]

Toulouse were very disappointing finishing bottom in the pool.
Saracens won easily enough and the margin could and should have been more. Their defence was water tight but the Toulouse attack wasn't exactly threatening.
So we have the Top 14 left. Is being equal first in the Top 14 deceiving? I think it is, and unless a change of attitude is not forthcoming in the immediate future, they won't even make the play offs.
Next Saturday, however, is against Section paloise (who beat ST earlier in the season), and one would normally expect them to win comfortably, but then again.....

Priority is the league. They're never going to say that publicly.

We are level with Racing Toulon Clermont with youngsters coming thru nicely and we haven't recruited like these clubs have. So we are in a good position, better than most.

 

[munstermuffin]

Oyonnax first half away sunk us. I knew we were out then really.

Shame, but for the better in that the league feels very obtainable this season. I can't say I particularly fancied going back to Sarries *again* anyway.

True but as I said ye finished well and I think it'd have been interesting had Ulster kept building well. But just as easily the 6Nations could've broke the momentum. As you say though it's probably better in terms of ye can have real cut off Pro12

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Will Sarries beat the 6-0 curse

 

[TheSaffycen]

Really not sure. If we get Racing or Toulon I think we really should beat them but won't. Too me I think it's that we don't believe we'll win.

 

[gaston le gaff]

winners of Racing v Touon will play winners of Leicester v Stade Francais.