Barrett ahead of Cruden? Carter near the end?

[Chikwa]

That is obviously his biggest weakness, a major issue at Super Rugby level as well (to the point where he lost the starting 10 position this year)! It is also a massive unknown as to how he would go starting for the ABs against a quality opposition, whether he could control the game and make the right decisions.

Beauden Barrett came on after 15 minutes at Eden park.That was as good as starting.He is potentially as good as Dan carter in his prime whilst I don't think Cruden will ever be as good as DC in his prime.He is the best attacking fly half in world rugby.He know needs to learn how to control the game and obviously improve his defence and goal kicking.Beaden Barrett may become what Lionel messi is to football.He is a diamond rough that sparkles.In 2015 he should start with Aron cruden on the bench and Dan carter as genral cover for centre or 3rd fly half.

 

[candy_man]

New Zealand have many 5/8, and high quality. The problem in New Zealand will be when Conrad Smith retire. There are many strong centers as Nonu, SBW, Rene Ranger, Robbie Fruean, but don't have a smart centre like Conrad, will be difficult to find a clever center and with such good defense.

Cheers

I am very interested in seeing how Ben Smith goes at centre to me he is an all round player a bit of a utility, but I reckon he would make a great centre he is a very strong runner like Conrad.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Beauden Barrett came on after 15 minutes at Eden park.That was as good as starting.He is potentially as good as Dan carter in his prime whilst I don't think Cruden will ever be as good as DC in his prime.He is the best attacking fly half in world rugby.He know needs to learn how to control the game and obviously improve his defence and goal kicking.Beaden Barrett may become what Lionel messi is to football.He is a diamond rough that sparkles.In 2015 he should start with Aron cruden on the bench and Dan carter as genral cover for centre or 3rd fly half.

glad to see you've joined the site Mr Barrett!

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

Haha mr barrett. Cant fool us with that name and avatar mr barret haha

 

[Dizzy]

The same arguement could be used in Larksea's favour as you guys are using against him. You're saying that creditting JDV's ball running is "making an excuse" for Barrett's missed-tackle. And when he alludes to Cruden being bunted off twice it's also an excuse?.. How? Because this thread is to discuss Barret and Cruden after all I believe he has a valid point in bringing it up. To say that it was a simple one on one tackle is making the scenario sound easy. The boks were hot on attack, JDV was running on an angle at full pace whilst Barrett was coming across. JDV change his angle from the gap to straight at Barrett. I believe that Nonu's chance at stopping JDV was an easier one than Barrett's but however, Barrett should have still stopped him with a better tackling technique but he didn't, let it go.
Cruden on the other hand had players running straight at him, no jinking or jiving, and got steam rolled.

Don't forget, the same defence criticisms were being used against Cruden three years ago. Now he's one of the best cover defenders we have.. Barrett will also get there too.

Also, stating that Barrett wouldn't be as good from the beginning of the game?..
Carter got injured pretty early in the other test and Barrett came on around the 13min mark,.. that's just as good as starting dont you think?.. And he had a great game that night too. For all the naysayers, I hope you eat humble pie when he does come to starting games and having blinders in them too.

Barrett's two tries in the French series were from last minute cameo's... And they were length of the field stuff, this is a talent that Cruden doesn't have.
He threatens the line more than Cruden does imo.

I've said all I needed to say on Barrett in previous posts and topics and the same as said for Cruden three years ago.

 

[ABs2011]

The same arguement could be used in Larksea's favour as you guys are using against him. You're saying that creditting JDV's ball running is "making an excuse" for Barrett's missed-tackle. And when he alludes to Cruden being bunted off twice it's also an excuse?.. How? Because this thread is to discuss Barret and Cruden after all I believe he has a valid point in bringing it up. To say that it was a simple one on one tackle is making the scenario sound easy. The boks were hot on attack, JDV was running on an angle at full pace whilst Barrett was coming across. JDV change his angle from the gap to straight at Barrett. I believe that Nonu's chance at stopping JDV was an easier one than Barrett's but however, Barrett should have still stopped him with a better tackling technique but he didn't, let it go.
Cruden on the other hand had players running straight at him, no jinking or jiving, and got steam rolled.

Don't forget, the same defence criticisms were being used against Cruden three years ago. Now he's one of the best cover defenders we have.. Barrett will also get there too.

Also, stating that Barrett wouldn't be as good from the beginning of the game?..
Carter got injured pretty early in the other test and Barrett came on around the 13min mark,.. that's just as good as starting dont you think?.. And he had a great game that night too. For all the naysayers, I hope you eat humble pie when he does come to starting games and having blinders in them too.

Barrett's two tries in the French series were from last minute cameo's... And they were length of the field stuff, this is a talent that Cruden doesn't have.
He threatens the line more than Cruden does imo.

I've said all I needed to say on Barrett in previous posts and topics and the same as said for Cruden three years ago.

Just for the record though - the thread ***le is "Barrett ahead of Cruden?" PRESENT tense. For all the arguments that people make, evidence suggests the most reasonable answer is NO. The reasons have been discussed in detail and at this stage the AB coaching staff and selectors clearly agree. Even some of your own arguments Dizzy point to the future, namely "Barrett will also get there too" with respect to his struggling D. Seems you are hinting more to a future prospect type comparison rather than looking at the present.

Regarding Barrett not starting yet, the point is still valid. His performance off the bench v SA after 15min was a fantastic outing, no doubting that, but it is an entirely different kettle of fish to be named in the starting lineup, providing the opposition time to construct a game plan to combat said starter, let alone starting week in week out and demonstrating a consistent ability to control a game from the outset and lead a winning team! These are things Cruden has done, at Super Rugby level winning two championships, and at AB level where he is undefeated as a starter. Barrett has not done this and IMHO will need to take his chances as a starter in lesser games (or via injury to the experienced guys) to work his way up! Don't underestimate this fact in the reasoning for the AB selectors choosing Cruden ahead of Barrett to this point in the games that mean something!

As for being a "naysayer" it's not that simple at all. First and foremost I am not a naysayer re Barrett. I highly rate him, but I believe we have 2 better options at 10 at this point in time. My support of Cruden is not about knocking Barrett down it is simply about answering the question "Barrett ahead of Cruden?" If the question was "Will Barrett overtake Cruden?" I'm not sure I'd be very comfortable answering that now. I'd probably still tend towards Cruden as he has proven himself over a longer time frame than Barrett BUT Barrett is without doubt closing the gap.

Looking forward to seeing how all three go from this weekend through to the EoY tour! Regardless of opinions in this thread one thing is for sure, The ABs are blessed with talent in the 10 jersey.

 

[Larksea]

Seriously, you missed the point that badly? I didn't think it was that subtle

The exact size of the players involved is completely irrelevant, though as donmcdazzle pointed out JdV and AAC are approximately the same weight (and Cruden is much smaller than AAC, therefore the size difference between Cruden and AAC is actually much larger than between Barrett and JdV!). The point is Barrett's tackling technique was shocking, which was the main reason he missed the tackle. If someone bigger than you is running at you at full speed and you try and tackle them high there is a high chance you will be bumped off. It doesn't matter who you are - if Dan Carter/Aaron Cruden/Conrad Smith/John Key had attempted to tackle JdV using the same technique as Barrett they would have similarly been bumped off. Similarly if Barrett has tackled JdV low around the hips using good tackling technique I believe he would have made the tackle. Of course there is no guarantee of this (as JdV is a powerful ball runner), but you would back most international rugby players to be able to tackle JdV if he runs straight at them (if not South Africa should simple have him crash the ball up all day given he is unstoppable with ball in hand ).

No-one is trying to make a big deal out of this one missed tackle. Indeed everybody here seems to have agreed that Barrett had a superb half of rugby. The problem is that you can't seem to accept that one of your favourite players made a mistake. Instead you make a range of excuses for him: JdV is unstoppable with ball in hand, other players missed tackles too etc. If you simply accepted that Barrett made a single mistake no-one would say anything! Other players missed tackles too: Faumuina, McCaw, Aaron Smith, Cruden, Nonu, Ben Smith & Savea missed some obvious ones - the reason we aren't continually talking about these is that no-one is making excuses for these players missing tackles...

I never said that Barrett wasn't completely without fault, I think most players would have had to get their technique almost spot on to tackle JDV in that position 1 on 1, he got very low and made it very hard for barrett to get to his hip or legs and that for that play in particular it was more well played to JDV than heap blame on barrett. And after going through barrett JDV went straight through Nonu as well.

I know you like Cruden, I do as well I honestly think he is arguably one of the most inspiring and likable people in NZ. Smart, skilled with an impeccable work ethic, hes achieved a lot so far and will continue to do so for a long time to come. I mean hes a cancer survivor to boot. I mean what a guy?

but right from the beginning Barrett has been ahead of Cruden many ways, considering hes two years (almost 2.5 years) younger than Cruden I think hes generally always been ahead of where Cruden has been at the same age in terms of his individual development and ability. Right now what we are seeing is Barrett getting to the same level maybe even surpassing Cruden while being 2.5 years Crudens Junior. and Still basically a pup.

I think the Cruden fans will highlight tackling technique because it is basically the only area cruden is still clearly better than Barrett, but the fact is Barrett has and is making big gains in that area. His defense for the ABs this year will be surprising and impressing a lot of people.

Yes, I have pet players. But if you look at the players I favour I'm generally right.

I supported Donald all the way through while almost noone else did then he played a key role in winning us a world cup.
I was a Messam supporter all along and he has ended up clearly elevating himself above Vito and Thomson to secure the AB 6 jersey.
Even going way back to the previous forum I posted on I got slagged off for suggesting Kaino would eventually be world class and I got flamed by cantabrians for suggesting Kieran Read should swap to #8 full time - some time before he actually did and became the best #8 in the world.

I dont get everything right, i swore I was 100% convinved Toby Smith would be a long time All Black and take over from Woodcock. That wont happen but before going over to Aussie i think hes shown he has the potential. I think he would be in this current All Black squad if he had not signed for the Rebels... I still think some bad timing with injury is all that prevented All Black selection before this year.

And ill also admit I never saw Conrad Smiths carrier going the way it has. I always thought Nonu made smith look good, I think a lot of people did but I think the whole of NZ now knows that the whole time it was probably the other way around. I mean who in 2007-08 would have though that by 2011 Conrad Smith would be the most important player in the All Blacks backline and the best center in the world?

IMO by the time Carter relinquishes his position as clear #1 first five in NZ Barrett is going to be the successor. But I cant remember a time like now where NZ has basically the three best 10s in the world. Could we even say that Carter, Barrett and Cruden would be three of the top 5 first fives in the game right now? pretty insane really.

I also think given time Perenara will overtake Smith hand TKB in the pecking order.

And I fricken hate the hurricanes!

 

[ABs2011]

but right from the beginning Barrett has been ahead of Cruden many ways, considering hes two years (almost 2.5 years) younger than Cruden I think hes generally always been ahead of where Cruden has been at the same age in terms of his individual development and ability. Right now what we are seeing is Barrett getting to the same level maybe even surpassing Cruden while being 2.5 years Crudens Junior. and Still basically a pup.

I think the Cruden fans will highlight tackling technique because it is basically the only area cruden is still clearly better than Barrett, but the fact is Barrett has and is making big gains in that area. His defense for the ABs this year will be surprising and impressing a lot of people.

"that tackle" aside the two points highlighted above are where I believe you come unstuck with the Barrett vs Cruden argument.

1) On the first point I don't not believe you can say with any legitimacy that "Barrett getting to the same level maybe even surpassing Cruden " until Barrett has demonstrated he can consistently lead the ABs to victory as a starter. Right now Barrett has demonstrated he is a wonderful impact player off the bench but he has not yet achieved to the levels of Cruden and in no way has he surpassed him! In time maybe he will but that is not the point I am arguing.

2) Surely you cannot say with a straight face that tackling technique is the only area Cruden is still clearly better than Barrett. To me that just goes to show you have clear biases towards Barrett. Cruden has a better in game kicking game, he is a better goal kicker, his all-round defense is far superior, his leadership is a quality Barrett has yet to develop, he is far more experienced, his control of the game is better, his passing is of a higher quality, and he has better vision.

Barrett as you say is a young pup, he is a quality player, with massive potential, he may well end up being the No. 1 five eighth for the ABs in time but please let's keep things in perspective.

For me Barrett has shown (particularly in the last few games for the ABs) he is on a fast track and certainly his stakes have risen in my books. We need to see him demonstrate that he can lead the Abs from the front in big games consistently and we need to see that his defense has improved enough to be confident in starting him in crunch games. Once he does that (and I think he will do in time), in my books he will be on par with Cruden. At that point it will be a head to head between the two to see who deserves the starting spot in the big games IF DC aint there. The reality is, Barrett is not there yet and hence why Cruden is still ahead of Barrett!

In saying that, Barrett has certainly done enough to warrant some chances to start at 10 and I hope he does well!!

 

[Darwin]

I never said that Barrett wasn't completely without fault, I think most players would have had to get their technique almost spot on to tackle JDV in that position 1 on 1, he got very low and made it very hard for barrett to get to his hip or legs and that for that play in particular it was more well played to JDV than heap blame on barrett. And after going through barrett JDV went straight through Nonu as well.

I know you like Cruden, I do as well I honestly think he is arguably one of the most inspiring and likable people in NZ. Smart, skilled with an impeccable work ethic, hes achieved a lot so far and will continue to do so for a long time to come. I mean hes a cancer survivor to boot. I mean what a guy?

but right from the beginning Barrett has been ahead of Cruden many ways, considering hes two years (almost 2.5 years) younger than Cruden I think hes generally always been ahead of where Cruden has been at the same age in terms of his individual development and ability. Right now what we are seeing is Barrett getting to the same level maybe even surpassing Cruden while being 2.5 years Crudens Junior. and Still basically a pup.

I think the Cruden fans will highlight tackling technique because it is basically the only area cruden is still clearly better than Barrett, but the fact is Barrett has and is making big gains in that area. His defense for the ABs this year will be surprising and impressing a lot of people.

Yes, I have pet players. But if you look at the players I favour I'm generally right.

I supported Donald all the way through while almost noone else did then he played a key role in winning us a world cup.
I was a Messam supporter all along and he has ended up clearly elevating himself above Vito and Thomson to secure the AB 6 jersey.
Even going way back to the previous forum I posted on I got slagged off for suggesting Kaino would eventually be world class and I got flamed by cantabrians for suggesting Kieran Read should swap to #8 full time - some time before he actually did and became the best #8 in the world.

I dont get everything right, i swore I was 100% convinved Toby Smith would be a long time All Black and take over from Woodcock. That wont happen but before going over to Aussie i think hes shown he has the potential. I think he would be in this current All Black squad if he had not signed for the Rebels... I still think some bad timing with injury is all that prevented All Black selection before this year.

And ill also admit I never saw Conrad Smiths carrier going the way it has. I always thought Nonu made smith look good, I think a lot of people did but I think the whole of NZ now knows that the whole time it was probably the other way around. I mean who in 2007-08 would have though that by 2011 Conrad Smith would be the most important player in the All Blacks backline and the best center in the world?

IMO by the time Carter relinquishes his position as clear #1 first five in NZ Barrett is going to be the successor. But I cant remember a time like now where NZ has basically the three best 10s in the world. Could we even say that Carter, Barrett and Cruden would be three of the top 5 first fives in the game right now? pretty insane really.

I also think given time Perenara will overtake Smith hand TKB in the pecking order.

And I fricken hate the hurricanes!

So you are saying that Barrett was at fault That is all we wanted to hear. No-one knows what would have happened if Barrett had tackled JdV properly. However one thing is for sure - if Barrett (or anyone else for that matter) tries to tackle JdV using that same tackling 'technique' again we will get exactly the same result! There is nothing wrong with Barrett's defense when he tackles low, but when he goes high he frequently gets bumped off. I have no doubt this is something that Barrett will fix, but it is still a work in progress. The big advantage Barrett has over Cruden in this regard is his size - one he sorts out his technique he could potentially be a top class defender as he certainly has plenty of size for a first-five (and I suspect he will add another 5kg or so to his frame over the next few years).

I'm no more a fan of Cruden than I am of Barrett, however Cruden is still the better player at the current time in my opinion. Simply put Cruden has been the best 10 in New Zealand for the last 2 seasons. He has lead the Chiefs to two successive ***les - I felt he was unlucky not to be New Zealand's Super Rugby player of the year last season (losing out to Conrad Smith), and while I'm sure he will be in contention again this season I suspect he will lose out to a different Smith this year. Cruden has been struggling throughout this season with a knee injury so we haven't seen the best of his running game in recent times - at his best he is almost unstoppable with ball in hand (remember the opening 25-odd mins in the third Ireland last season!). The only thing I feel that may hold Cruden back are injuries, and these are a real threat given his size (and fearless nature). Hopefully he is able to shake off these injuries, but I have a fear that these ****ling injuries could become the bane of his career.

There is no doubt that Barrett is a well a head of Cruden in terms of development at a similar age. I felt Cruden was very over-rated at a young age, and really only came into his own in the last two seasons. However it is not just on defense that Cruden has an advantage over Barrett at this stage. Cruden has more experience (obviously not much Barrett can do about that), has a much better short kicking game (which can be very valuable against the rush defense), has the ability to offload and send players through gaps, has a incredible knack of charging down opposition kicks and intercepting passes (e.g. he read the opposition attack incredibly well), and is probably still a better goal-kicker than Barrett (though it has been pretty even this season). Barrett certainly has better range than Cruden and on his day can be an outstanding goal-kicker, but when Cruden is fit (e.g he doesn't have a knee injury) he is a very good goal-kicker (he kicked at 80% in the 2011 & 2012 Super Rugby seasons, but only about 70% this season after returning for a leg injury).

I think it is really hard to predict who will be the better player in a few seasons time, but at the moment Cruden still has the edge (despite some outstanding cameo's by Barrett in the last month).


EDIT: Ooops, Looks like I have just re-phrased ABs2001's post!

 

[ABs2011]

So you are saying that Barrett was at fault That is all we wanted to hear. No-one knows what would have happened if Barrett had tackled JdV properly. However one thing is for sure - if Barrett (or anyone else for that matter) tries to tackle JdV using that same tackling 'technique' again we will get exactly the same result! There is nothing wrong with Barrett's defense when he tackles low, but when he goes high he frequently gets bumped off. I have no doubt this is something that Barrett will fix, but it is still a work in progress. The big advantage Barrett has over Cruden in this regard is his size - one he sorts out his technique he could potentially be a top class defender as he certainly has plenty of size for a first-five (and I suspect he will add another 5kg or so to his frame over the next few years).

I'm no more a fan of Cruden than I am of Barrett, however Cruden is still the better player at the current time in my opinion. Simply put Cruden has been the best 10 in New Zealand for the last 2 seasons. He has lead the Chiefs to two successive ***les - I felt he was unlucky not to be New Zealand's Super Rugby player of the year last season (losing out to Conrad Smith), and while I'm sure he will be in contention again this season I suspect he will lose out to a different Smith this year. Cruden has been struggling throughout this season with a knee injury so we haven't seen the best of his running game in recent times - at his best he is almost unstoppable with ball in hand (remember the opening 25-odd mins in the third Ireland last season!). The only thing I feel that may hold Cruden back are injuries, and these are a real threat given his size (and fearless nature). Hopefully he is able to shake off these injuries, but I have a fear that these ****ling injuries could become the bane of his career.

There is no doubt that Barrett is a well a head of Cruden in terms of development at a similar age. I felt Cruden was very over-rated at a young age, and really only came into his own in the last two seasons. However it is not just on defense that Cruden has an advantage over Barrett at this stage. Cruden has more experience (obviously not much Barrett can do about that), has a much better short kicking game (which can be very valuable against the rush defense), has the ability to offload and send players through gaps, has a incredible knack of charging down opposition kicks and intercepting passes (e.g. he read the opposition attack incredibly well), and is probably still a better goal-kicker than Barrett (though it has been pretty even this season). Barrett certainly has better range than Cruden and on his day can be an outstanding goal-kicker, but when Cruden is fit (e.g he doesn't have a knee injury) he is a very good goal-kicker (he kicked at 80% in the 2011 & 2012 Super Rugby seasons, but only about 70% this season after returning for a leg injury).

I think it is really hard to predict who will be the better player in a few seasons time, but at the moment Cruden still has the edge (despite some outstanding cameo's by Barrett in the last month).


EDIT: Ooops, Looks like I have just re-phrased ABs2001's post!

Haha, probably goes without saying then that I think you are spot on with that post there mate!!

 

[Larksea]

Im saying sure Barretts technique wasn't perfect but watch it again and look how low and hard JVD goes, he wasn't trying to offload, pass or step he was 100% focused on doing what he did. I don't think Cruden would have made that tackle and I even think carter would have struggled to make it. and carter's probably the best 10 in the world on defense. No slight on Cruden either, Crudens defense is great for his size but the fact hes usually the smallest guy on the park will mean he can and does get bumped off on occasion, I think Cruden was the only chief to appear on the list of top missed tackles in super rugby, obviously still ahead of Barrett. Cruden generally makes up for it with some pretty epic work on cover defense, Barrett clearly does the same.

if anything its pretty harsh making anything of this tackle when others including Cruden missed tackles, and barrett not only came up with a bit of brilliance to score the championship clinching try but he also came up with a try saving tackle that very few maybe no other player could pull off.

yes the tackle is a mark against him but how do you or anyone else think his defense overall has been during this championship? I honestly think he would have exceeded everyone's expectations in terms of his defense, hes made a lot of very good tackles. Evenyone knows its an area he needs to improve and he clearly has.

No one could clearly say Cruden is ahead of Barrett right now. Cruden has a bit more experience, but Barrett has the momentum and current form. Generally in terms of where Barrett has been for his age - he has always been ahead of where Cruden was, to the point now where both being fit they are fairly Even - Barrett is still 2.5years younger.

its not clear cut though, IMO they have contrasting makeups ,when I compare the two:

In Cruden I see a hard worker and leader who seems to have experience and an eye for the game well beyond his years. hes like 24 now but plays like a vet.

Barrett to me is a true natural, gifted with a ridiculous amount of speed for a skinny white kid and an uncanny natural ability to see and create space and just make rugby look easy.

 

[Darwin]

Im saying sure Barretts technique wasn't perfect but watch it again and look how low and hard JVD goes, he wasn't trying to offload, pass or step he was 100% focused on doing what he did. I don't think Cruden would have made that tackle and I even think carter would have struggled to make it. and carter's probably the best 10 in the world on defense. No slight on Cruden either, Crudens defense is great for his size but the fact hes usually the smallest guy on the park will mean he can and does get bumped off on occasion, I think Cruden was the only chief to appear on the list of top missed tackles in super rugby, obviously still ahead of Barrett. Cruden generally makes up for it with some pretty epic work on cover defense, Barrett clearly does the same.

if anything its pretty harsh making anything of this tackle when others including Cruden missed tackles, and barrett not only came up with a bit of brilliance to score the championship clinching try but he also came up with a try saving tackle that very few maybe no other player could pull off.

yes the tackle is a mark against him but how do you or anyone else think his defense overall has been during this championship? I honestly think he would have exceeded everyone's expectations in terms of his defense, hes made a lot of very good tackles. Evenyone knows its an area he needs to improve and he clearly has.

No one could clearly say Cruden is ahead of Barrett right now. Cruden has a bit more experience, but Barrett has the momentum and current form. Generally in terms of where Barrett has been for his age - he has always been ahead of where Cruden was, to the point now where both being fit they are fairly Even - Barrett is still 2.5years younger.

its not clear cut though, IMO they have contrasting makeups ,when I compare the two:

In Cruden I see a hard worker and leader who seems to have experience and an eye for the game well beyond his years. hes like 24 now but plays like a vet.

Barrett to me is a true natural, gifted with a ridiculous amount of speed for a skinny white kid and an uncanny natural ability to see and create space and just make rugby look easy.

Did you just admit Barrett made a mistake? Progress has been made One day we may even get you to admit that Stephen Donald made a mistake is a certain test match against Australia in Hong Kong in 2010

Again, no-one is making anything out of a single missed tackle by Barrett. I just want you to admit that Barrett made a single mistake. I can now die happy.

I think Barrett's defense showed continued signs of improvement throughout the Rugby Championship, but still needs work. As I have pointed out (3-4 times...) when he tackles low he is a good defender, but he still has a habit of going high (and far worse players than JdV go straight through him when he tries tackling high). I (and I'm sure the AB's selectors) still think that Cruden is still ahead of Barrett at this stage. Barrett is certainly in better form, but Cruden has been consistently the form 10 in the country for the last 2 seasons - a couple of quiet tests (and some outstanding cameo's by Barrett) doesn't suddenly change this....

 

[Chikwa]

Did you just admit Barrett made a mistake? Progress has been made One day we may even get you to admit that Stephen Donald made a mistake is a certain test match against Australia in Hong Kong in 2010

Again, no-one is making anything out of a single missed tackle by Barrett. I just want you to admit that Barrett missed a single mistake. I can now die happy.

I think Barrett's defense showed continued signs of improvement throughout the Rugby Championship, but still needs work. As I have pointed out (3-4 times...) when he tackles low he is a good defender, but he still has a habit of going high (and far worse players than JdV go straight through him when he tries tackling high). I (and I'm sure the AB's selectors) still think that Cruden is still ahead of Barrett at this stage. Barrett is certainly in better form, but Cruden has been consistently the form 10 in the country for the last 2 seasons - a couple of quiet tests (and some outstanding cameo's by Barrett) doesn't suddenly change this....

The fact that the question is being asked is Barrett ahead of cruden means his performances have provoked the question. Most likely even the AB coaching staff are delighted to have that question asked .Barret is only 22 and a natural.He was born to play this game.Yes he missed the tackle on Jean De villiers but what about his tackle on willie le roux when he ran the length of the field from behind may I add and caught him.Meaning he has the right attitude and determination to improve his game.

 

[Larksea]

Did you just admit Barrett made a mistake? Progress has been made One day we may even get you to admit that Stephen Donald made a mistake is a certain test match against Australia in Hong Kong in 2010

Again, no-one is making anything out of a single missed tackle by Barrett. I just want you to admit that Barrett made a single mistake. I can now die happy.

I think Barrett's defense showed continued signs of improvement throughout the Rugby Championship, but still needs work. As I have pointed out (3-4 times...) when he tackles low he is a good defender, but he still has a habit of going high (and far worse players than JdV go straight through him when he tries tackling high). I (and I'm sure the AB's selectors) still think that Cruden is still ahead of Barrett at this stage. Barrett is certainly in better form, but Cruden has been consistently the form 10 in the country for the last 2 seasons - a couple of quiet tests (and some outstanding cameo's by Barrett) doesn't suddenly change this....

kinda the same scenario as Donald and that game. Sure kicking that ball out may have helped at least it was a long kick and gave the AB defense time to regroup, it would have to have been kicked out very shallow to prevent a quick throw in anyway. But the fact is Brad Thorn and John Afoa missed key tackles and Toeava missed a howler coming out of the line and leaving a gap for Beale. Yes don made a mistake, but Donalds mistake wasn't as bad as some other mistakes made by other all blacks in the last 5 min of that game - yet Donald shouldered all, and by all I mean 100% of the blame from a lot of the public.

ok, barrett made a mistake. Cruden made similar misses in that game

peronally I dont think any of them were significant. IMO in the JDV try the mistake was not committing 2 defenders, Nonu was maybe in a better position to stop or hold JDV as JDV had been partially slowed by Barrett. IMO the ABs would have been better off committing 2 to JDV and leaving a gap out wide.

 

[donmcdazzle]

kinda the same scenario as Donald and that game. Sure kicking that ball out may have helped at least it was a long kick and gave the AB defense time to regroup, it would have to have been kicked out very shallow to prevent a quick throw in anyway. But the fact is Brad Thorn and John Afoa missed key tackles and Toeava missed a howler coming out of the line and leaving a gap for Beale. Yes don made a mistake, but Donalds mistake wasn't as bad as some other mistakes made by other all blacks in the last 5 min of that game - yet Donald shouldered all, and by all I mean 100% of the blame from a lot of the public.

ok, barrett made a mistake. Cruden made similar misses in that game

peronally I dont think any of them were significant. IMO in the JDV try the mistake was not committing 2 defenders, Nonu was maybe in a better position to stop or hold JDV as JDV had been partially slowed by Barrett. IMO the ABs would have been better off committing 2 to JDV and leaving a gap out wide.

You're the only one who doesn't think that was Donald's fault. You can't blame subsequent errors given that Donald's mistake created the situation that lead to further errors. If he had just kicked it out, or alternatively just purposely knocked it on so we could have wasted some time with the scrum (given we had advantage) we would have had a far better chance at winning.

I need to see Barrett dominate a Super season and lead the 'Canes to a few good wins before I want to see him at 10 for the ABs. His form was really patchy this year. Are we all forgetting he got relegated to fullback in favour of Tusi Pisi at one point? He is young and is only getting better and better, but lets just see him string together some good performances over a season the way Cruden has done before he is starting for the ABs.

 

[Darwin]

kinda the same scenario as Donald and that game. Sure kicking that ball out may have helped at least it was a long kick and gave the AB defense time to regroup, it would have to have been kicked out very shallow to prevent a quick throw in anyway. But the fact is Brad Thorn and John Afoa missed key tackles and Toeava missed a howler coming out of the line and leaving a gap for Beale. Yes don made a mistake, but Donalds mistake wasn't as bad as some other mistakes made by other all blacks in the last 5 min of that game - yet Donald shouldered all, and by all I mean 100% of the blame from a lot of the public.

Oh Larksea, you are such a joker

ok, barrett made a mistake. Cruden made similar misses in that game

Exactly. As did McCaw, Faumuina, Retallick, Ben Smith et al.

peronally I dont think any of them were significant. IMO in the JDV try the mistake was not committing 2 defenders, Nonu was maybe in a better position to stop or hold JDV as JDV had been partially slowed by Barrett. IMO the ABs would have been better off committing 2 to JDV and leaving a gap out wide.

Completely disagree. If Barrett - or any other All Black - can not be backed to tackle JdV 1-on-1 when he runs straight at them they should not be playing international rugby. Obviously all players miss the odd tackle, but you can't afford to have a player in your side that can't be trusted to make a 1-on-1 tackle at least 75-80% of the time. It is very simple really. Barrett should have made the tackle. If he had tackled low he would have given himself a good chance of making the tackle. He didn't and he got bumped off. As good as JdV is, he is not Jonah.....

 

[Larksea]

You're the only one who doesn't think that was Donald's fault. You can't blame subsequent errors given that Donald's mistake created the situation that lead to further errors. If he had just kicked it out, or alternatively just purposely knocked it on so we could have wasted some time with the scrum (given we had advantage) we would have had a far better chance at winning.

I need to see Barrett dominate a Super season and lead the 'Canes to a few good wins before I want to see him at 10 for the ABs. His form was really patchy this year. Are we all forgetting he got relegated to fullback in favour of Tusi Pisi at one point? He is young and is only getting better and better, but lets just see him string together some good performances over a season the way Cruden has done before he is starting for the ABs.

... subsequent errors?

Afoa and thorns bad missed tackles were before Donalds kick, they were what put the ABs under pressure and back in their red zone. Honestly I think picking on one player when many made mistakes is simply childish. Also the fact people find it so hard to give credit to Australia and a few of their players that had a blinder. It was a dead rubber but Australia just wanted it more and it showed. The Ab's lost, kiwis got emotional/irrational and Donald was the easy target. Donald went from ITM cup (where by the way he totally slam dunked Cruden in a Waikato vs Manuatu game) into the most intense test match of 2010. He made a mistake that Cruden or Carter could have made and have made similar mistakes and he got completely barbequed.

The hurricanes are a team they will only be as good as the 30 players and coaches its made up from. Barrett is generally their best player along with Savea & Smith & Perenara by a big margin. Your generally wrong with that comment, Barrett is now an established All Black squad member who has proven himself at test level playing both 10 and 15, starting, as a super sub and as an early game emergency sub hes hardly put a foot wrong for the ABs on and off the field and he is much more an established part of the ABs than Cruden was 2.5 years ago. He doesn't need to do any more for the hurricanes than any other established All Black player needs to do for their team in super rugby. I mean look at this season Barrett has been picked from a questionable hurricanes team and become one of the talking points of the All Black squad because of his good performances. Hansen & foster already know Barrett is a better player than the hurricanes results show, and they generally wont improve till they develop a decent forward pack.

 

[donmcdazzle]

... subsequent errors?

Afoa and thorns bad missed tackles were before Donalds kick, they were what put the ABs under pressure and back in their red zone. Honestly I think picking on one player when many made mistakes is simply childish. Also the fact people find it so hard to give credit to Australia and a few of their players that had a blinder. It was a dead rubber but Australia just wanted it more and it showed. The Ab's lost, kiwis got emotional/irrational and Donald was the easy target. Donald went from ITM cup (where by the way he totally slam dunked Cruden in a Waikato vs Manuatu game) into the most intense test match of 2010. He made a mistake that Cruden or Carter could have made and have made similar mistakes and he got completely barbequed.

The hurricanes are a team they will only be as good as the 30 players and coaches its made up from. Barrett is generally their best player along with Savea & Smith & Perenara by a big margin. Your generally wrong with that comment, Barrett is now an established All Black squad member who has proven himself at test level playing both 10 and 15, starting, as a super sub and as an early game emergency sub hes hardly put a foot wrong for the ABs on and off the field and he is much more an established part of the ABs than Cruden was 2.5 years ago. He doesn't need to do any more for the hurricanes than any other established All Black player needs to do for their team in super rugby. I mean look at this season Barrett has been picked from a questionable hurricanes team and become one of the talking points of the All Black squad because of his good performances. Hansen & foster already know Barrett is a better player than the hurricanes results show, and they generally wont improve till they develop a decent forward pack.

Haha you are nothing if not consistent. Donald cost us that game Larksea and you are the only person who doesn't think so. Forget what other players could/should/would have done, Donald made a massive error in a crucial moment that cost us the game, simple as that.

Valid point on the Hurricanes being a team and he is only one player etc but you ignored the part where he couldn't string together consistent performances and got dropped for a complete journeyman. Also, the Hurricanes have a lot of talented players. The backline is star studded other than Bateman. The forward pack lack a good lock and 7 but the rest have been chewing up everyone in ITM cup so isn't like he is playing with a bunch of muppets.

Comparing where players were 2.5 years ago is a bit pointless, Slade was ahead of all of them 2.5 years ago and we all saw how that played out. At the moment, Cruden is better. Barrett might become the next Carter, and for the ABs sake I hope he does. He could also get a career ending injury in the next game he plays so it is best not to go too over the top with hyperbole until it actually happens.

 

[Chikwa]

Haha you are nothing if not consistent. Donald cost us that game Larksea and you are the only person who doesn't think so. Forget what other players could/should/would have done, Donald made a massive error in a crucial moment that cost us the game, simple as that.

Valid point on the Hurricanes being a team and he is only one player etc but you ignored the part where he couldn't string together consistent performances and got dropped for a complete journeyman. Also, the Hurricanes have a lot of talented players. The backline is star studded other than Bateman. The forward pack lack a good lock and 7 but the rest have been chewing up everyone in ITM cup so isn't like he is playing with a bunch of muppets.

Comparing where players were 2.5 years ago is a bit pointless, Slade was ahead of all of them 2.5 years ago and we all saw how that played out. At the moment, Cruden is better. Barrett might become the next Carter, and for the ABs sake I hope he does. He could also get a career ending injury in the next game he plays so it is best not to go too over the top with hyperbole until it actually happens.

Great Debate but the question that should be asked is who will replace Mealamu and Andrew Hore? To me Dan Coles lacks the match temperament .Is he really the next best hooker in New Zealand?

 

[nickdnz]

Great Debate but the question that should be asked is who will replace Mealamu and Andrew Hore? To me Dan Coles lacks the match temperament .Is he really the next best hooker in New Zealand?

Maybe worth asking that question in a thread not ***led 'Barrett ahead of Cruden? Carter near the end?'