Barrett ahead of Cruden? Carter near the end?

[smartcooky]

Wasn't Carter a second five for Cameron McIntyre years ago for the Crusaders?

I think you are right. He has also played a Fullback for Canterbury, the Crusaders.

Carter played his first fourteen tests at 12, either starting there or subbing on there, except for one test where he subbed on for Spencer at 1st 5/8.

It wasn't until his 15th test (against Italy in Rome) that he started at 10, and he has pretty much remained there ever since

 

[Icemn]

Wasn't Carter a second five for Cameron McIntyre years ago for the Crusaders?

yes carter was 12, even for the AB he came on as a 12.. those were in the days of King Carlos and Andrew... who were starting to fade... and the played carter on 10 and he just took off...

good combination as Aaron Mauger played along carter for the saders and AB

 

[Icemn]

I must say...

I very very impressed with our young flyhalves...

cruden, barrett and taylor... ok cruden have more expericnce than the other 2...

so I'm just going to refer to Barrett and Taylor... they are brilliant...

Taylor reminds me so of Carter... and Barrett of the "upright" Andrew Merhtens lol

my problem with NZ rugby has been on 10 and 7... that is covered now... (I don't wane go off topic)

but our main problem (s) is maybe 12 (carter maybe or SBW to return/tamati gone/Tim Na-nai can work??? )... but deff hooker... coles needs to step up... kevin and Andrew r getting old... sorry they are old lol

 

[Jack Reacher]

Couldn't disagree more! I think you just havent had a chance to watch him enough. Cruden is a fantastic player, IMO on the verge of becoming the AB #1.
You say you want to look at test match rugby only, which for a start is a strange thing to do given the majority of the rugby we have seen both men play is at Super Rugby level, and particularly because Barrett has had such limited international game time, how many games has Barrett started? 1 game is it against Italy?? and the rest of the bench? Maybe he has started 2, I can't recall though.

But lets go with your selective analysis; Cruden has been given the opportunities at 10 plain and simply because he is a better option than Barrett, a significantly superior player. I think what happens is that some marginal fans flick on the TV and see a player do a couple good runs and get convinced he is the next big thing, and forget that rugby is much more than running the ball. Don't get me wrong Barrett is a good player and may even surpass Cruden eventually (I doubt it though), he will certainly be a great backup and bench option as he can cover 15 as well.

Did you watch game one of the RC in Sydney? Cruden was very good in that game - far more impressive than Barrett against a 14 man SA squad at home in NZ. I would also urge you to look at the last couple years of Super Rugby as well. Cruden has been masterful two years in a row leading his team to two championships. Barrett had a good year in 2012, and was OK this year, but he has significant deficiencies in D, his all round kicking game needs work and his goal kicking is average. Cruden on the other hand is the whole package now.

No doubt in my mind who the next #1 10 is in NZ

I watch all games. Hence why I'm on this site. I think that's the beauty of the game that we have so many players and we can change them at a drop of a hat (or a Carter!). It's not an argument forum it's a discussion forum and I take your points in but disagree without challenging your knowledge or dedication.
I would like to see Battett play simply because he reminds me of a young carter with his aggression where Cruden is definately of the spencer mode.

 

[ABs2011]

I watch all games. Hence why I'm on this site. I think that's the beauty of the game that we have so many players and we can change them at a drop of a hat (or a Carter!). It's not an argument forum it's a discussion forum and I take your points in but disagree without challenging your knowledge or dedication.
I would like to see Battett play simply because he reminds me of a young carter with his aggression where Cruden is definately of the spencer mode.

Fair enough mate, I cam across poorly I think, apologies.

Given that you've watched the majority of Super Rugby and the AB test that both players have played in then I'm just not sure how you could summise that Barrett is a better option the Cruden right now. Cruden has outplayed Barrett over the last two years at both levels hands down in my opinion. The only facet of the game which Barret is superior is his ability to beat a player in contact, but other wise everything is in Crudens favour; defence, goalkicking, in game kicking, direction, decision making, vision, and combinations with players inside and outside of him. Barrett a young Carter? Yup I can see that. Cruden in the Spencer mould? Nah mate I don't see it. To me Spencer was a bit sketchy, moments of brilliance but a lot of poor decision making. I don't see the later in Cruden at all.

Good thing is we can agree to disagree

So you think the ABs will start Barrett even if Cruden is fit this week?

 

[Jack Reacher]

No worries, I think they might pick Barrett - again only my opinion, just think he would be more reliable in a really tense environment but in saying that I might have come across a Cruden hater, certainly not - I really rate him, just wish he would play with more confidence often. He needs to boss a test, really own one, then I will pick him in my team!

Fair enough mate, I cam across poorly I think, apologies.

Given that you've watched the majority of Super Rugby and the AB test that both players have played in then I'm just not sure how you could summise that Barrett is a better option the Cruden right now. Cruden has outplayed Barrett over the last two years at both levels hands down in my opinion. The only facet of the game which Barret is superior is his ability to beat a player in contact, but other wise everything is in Crudens favour; defence, goalkicking, in game kicking, direction, decision making, vision, and combinations with players inside and outside of him. Barrett a young Carter? Yup I can see that. Cruden in the Spencer mould? Nah mate I don't see it. To me Spencer was a bit sketchy, moments of brilliance but a lot of poor decision making. I don't see the later in Cruden at all.

Good thing is we can agree to disagree

So you think the ABs will start Barrett even if Cruden is fit this week?

 

[Andronicus]

I think Barrett has the ability to be as good as Carter, perhaps even better.

His performance against Argentina was awesome - one minute he was setting up a try, the next driving into a maul and ripping the ball off a burly forward.

Great stuff.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Barrett had a good game against a sub SA side due to known reasons.
Cruden in my view is a better all rounded player and better kicker
Colin Slade being fit tops both of them

no he doesn't. Maybe 3 years ago. He will have a very hard time passing either of them now.

for the rest of the thread, Cruden is obviously better than Barrett. You can speculate on future potential or whatever but right now Cruden is simply better and will surely start if fit against Argentina.

 

[Dizzy]

Barrett's tactical kicking is superior to Crudens..
ATM Crudens D is superior to Barretts.
Goal kicking I would give a slight edge to Barrett.
Both have a great running game, but I'd give Barrett the edge here as Cruden's more of a probing quick stepper to beat the man and then pop an offload instead of gas the man."

I said this about three years ago when everyone was criticizing Cruden's D and saying he was far from being one of the top first fives back at the Hurricanes. And now I will say it for Barrett.
Beauden Barrett's defence has picked up significantly and I doubt he has much trouble in this area anymore. So to everyone saying he is ****e on D... You're talking a load of rubbish mate. As said for Cruden years ago when he had D troubles of his own. He picked up and people were still saying he was ****e...

The difference with Barrett for me is his composure. For some reason, he is a very very composed young player and is constantly playing good. And I'm not saying Cruden panics, but he has turned out poor performances in the past where Barrett has never. If he has, you link me to that match and I will apologise to you, but I really doubt you can...

He orchestrated some brilliant plays and tries throughout the season and for those who are saying he had a poor 2012.. you dont know what you're talking about. He also orchestrated some great come-from-behind-last-minute moments as well, an obvious example that comes to mind was the Blues game last year, last play, Hurricanes were 6 points behind, it was about halfway at a ruck and BOOM, Barrett broke the line, ran a great angle and put Conrad in for the try, and then he also kept his composure to slot the kick to win the game.

Even the French series this year, the last two games where he was on the bench, he entered the game with about 5mins to go in both games and scored tries in each game with such limited game time.. and they werent easy, catch and score tries, they were length of the field stuff, where he had a vital role in the orchestration..

Naysayers can say what they want, But Barrett is no slouch and to suggest he is FAR behind Cruden is rubbish.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Barrett's tactical kicking is superior to Crudens..
ATM Crudens D is superior to Barretts.
Goal kicking I would give a slight edge to Barrett.
Both have a great running game, but I'd give Barrett the edge here as Cruden's more of a probing quick stepper to beat the man and then pop an offload instead of gas the man."

I said this about three years ago when everyone was criticizing Cruden's D and saying he was far from being one of the top first fives back at the Hurricanes. And now I will say it for Barrett.
Beauden Barrett's defence has picked up significantly and I doubt he has much trouble in this area anymore. So to everyone saying he is ****e on D... You're talking a load of rubbish mate. As said for Cruden years ago when he had D troubles of his own. He picked up and people were still saying he was ****e...

The difference with Barrett for me is his composure. For some reason, he is a very very composed young player and is constantly playing good. And I'm not saying Cruden panics, but he has turned out poor performances in the past where Barrett has never. If he has, you link me to that match and I will apologise to you, but I really doubt you can...

He orchestrated some brilliant plays and tries throughout the season and for those who are saying he had a poor 2012.. you dont know what you're talking about. He also orchestrated some great come-from-behind-last-minute moments as well, an obvious example that comes to mind was the Blues game last year, last play, Hurricanes were 6 points behind, it was about halfway at a ruck and BOOM, Barrett broke the line, ran a great angle and put Conrad in for the try, and then he also kept his composure to slot the kick to win the game.

Even the French series this year, the last two games where he was on the bench, he entered the game with about 5mins to go in both games and scored tries in each game with such limited game time.. and they werent easy, catch and score tries, they were length of the field stuff, where he had a vital role in the orchestration..

Naysayers can say what they want, But Barrett is no slouch and to suggest he is FAR behind Cruden is rubbish.

Chiefs v Hurriances, first match last year. Cruden schooled Barrett. Unfortunately a highlights package won't do it, but if you wanted to rewatch the whole game...

 

[Feicarsinn]

Bring back Stephen Brett.

 

[Dizzy]

Chiefs v Hurriances, first match last year. Cruden schooled Barrett. Unfortunately a highlights package won't do it, but if you wanted to rewatch the whole game...

last year or this year??... If you really mean last year, I'd say it's quite irrelevant considering both of their forms have increased since..
Lol.. But on this year It's well known that first match was played in very poor conditions on a night where anything could've happened and there were some crucial calls made by the referee that couldve swayed the game as easily in favour of the Canes. Cruden did have a good game I agree but Beauden also had a good game where as Cruden's chiefs got the win I dont think that means Cruden "schooled" him as you say..
Now I will bring up the second game of this year... Cruden was very instrumental throughout the game, had players running great lines, made some brilliant runs and even scored a try where he had a hand in atleast four to five times before actually going over with enough strength to get the ball down in the tackle..

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

last year or this year??... If you really mean last year, I'd say it's quite irrelevant considering both of their forms have increased since..
Lol.. But on this year It's well known that first match was played in very poor conditions on a night where anything could've happened and there were some crucial calls made by the referee that couldve swayed the game as easily in favour of the Canes. Cruden did have a good game I agree but Beauden also had a good game where as Cruden's chiefs got the win I dont think that means Cruden "schooled" him as you say..
Now I will bring up the second game of this year... Cruden was very instrumental throughout the game, had players running great lines, made some brilliant runs and even scored a try where he had a hand in atleast four to five times before actually going over with enough strength to get the ball down in the tackle..

I did mean last year. I don't see how a year ago is irrelevant. You've said past performances, Cruden has been very good in pretty much all matches this year (Though his goal kicking has faltered a bit, but he's had an injury), and he was just as good in 2012 so I can only assume you're referring to matches from pre 2012..?

 

[ABs2011]

If you are to believe Hansen the debate may be over as has indicated in an interview that Cruden will start.

 

[donmcdazzle]

The difference with Barrett for me is his composure. For some reason, he is a very very composed young player and is constantly playing good. And I'm not saying Cruden panics, but he has turned out poor performances in the past where Barrett has never. If he has, you link me to that match and I will apologise to you, but I really doubt you can...

He has definitely had some poor games. He wouldn't have been dropped or shifted to fullback if he was so composed and brilliant every week for the canes.

the whole 'Barrett is so composed' storyline annoys me a bit. He misses touch and tackles and takes average options just as all players do. He has quiet games where he doesn't impose himself. The Hurricanes have had two pretty poor seasons, and I know that isn't his fault, but he has played his part in some of their underwhelming performances.

He missed touch against the boks a couple of times but everyone has glossed over that cause it doesn't fit the composure yarn.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

If you are to believe Hansen the debate may be over as has indicated in an interview that Cruden will start.

I'd like to believe that most people didn't think Barrett would start ahead of Cruden anyway.

Is Barrett the future long term 10? Quite possibly. Cruden simply doesn't have the size, at least in my opinion, to be a top class first five. To some that may sound dumb, and I can understand that, but I think against the bigger teams (i.e. the South Africans and [at times] the English) he may struggle, especially if he doesn't have some big guys outside him (which is highly possible, with Nonu unlikely to make it past 2015, if he even makes it to them). Barrett still has a lot of work ons - more so than Cruden, but he definitely has more potential than the likes of Taylor and Slade. Carter will definitely be gone after 2015, and I can see both Cruden and Barrett playing a huge role in the All Blacks' future. For the moment though, Cruden is definitely ahead of Barrett.

 

[nickdnz]

I'd like to believe that most people didn't think Barrett would start ahead of Cruden anyway.

Is Barrett the future long term 10? Quite possibly. Cruden simply doesn't have the size, at least in my opinion, to be a top class first five. To some that may sound dumb, and I can understand that, but I think against the bigger teams (i.e. the South Africans and [at times] the English) he may struggle, especially if he doesn't have some big guys outside him (which is highly possible, with Nonu unlikely to make it past 2015, if he even makes it to them). Barrett still has a lot of work ons - more so than Cruden, but he definitely has more potential than the likes of Taylor and Slade. Carter will definitely be gone after 2015, and I can see both Cruden and Barrett playing a huge role in the All Blacks' future. For the moment though, Cruden is definitely ahead of Barrett.

The thing is I haven't really seen him struggle due to his size, as his technique is very good. Its not like he doesn't play against big South Africans at least five times a season anyway, and he's never looked particularly ineffective in defense.

What Cruden does that I really admire, is he just runs preset plays so nicely. Sharp passes onto the players running the best lines - and then gets to space or in support. His offloading is easily the best and he has a very good short kicking game. Not sure much more you really want. Barrett had a great last game and I have high hopes - but I'd be very pleased if he achieved the level that Cruden has been playing at over the last two years.

 

[ABs2011]

I'd like to believe that most people didn't think Barrett would start ahead of Cruden anyway.

Yeah mate - it confuses me a bit as well and no argument I've seen so far has been at all convincing. At the end of the day Cruden has been better at Super Rugby level, and at AB level, AND not surprisingly the ABs pick him ahead of Barrett as well.

I look forward to seeing Barrett develop, was super excited to see him go so well against SA off the benhc, but for now the Cruden Barrett debate is a one sided one IMO.

Agree with Nick re his size as well, not an issue yet, and don't think it will be, but time will tell. SBW on his outside has always helped as well

 

[The Undertaker]

It' strange to me how quick people are to criticize Cruden. He has won 2 Super Rugby ***les consecutively, leading from ten with a good but hardly star-studded team, has never lost a test match starting 10, he lead us confidently (from nowhere) in the World Cup semifinal against Australia, he captained NZ20s to a WC and lead little old Manawatu to a Championship final. He is a clear common denominator in successful systems and team cultures.

When fit his goalkicking is as good as anyone's, and his decision making with the ball is second to none. He is an outstanding leader and communicator, and is quite clearly a better defender than Barrett (although Barrett is improving to the point that it will not be an issue going forward) and he simply exudes success.

Dan Carter was awful against England last year. Awful. And he has clearly lost a bit of the spark from earlier in his career, not to mention the fact that he can't stop getting injured. That being said, if he's still fit and keen, you'd clearly pick him. Not at 12 though, whoever said that needs to think before they type. When DC played 12, the game was very different, the position was for players like Mauger and Giteau who were distributors and clever kickers. The flat defensive and attack lines that are so prominent these days have altered the position and brought forth a wave of big, cart-horse types: Ma'a Nonu, Jamie Roberts et al. How Dan's increasingly creaky body would stand up to the rigors of the position is fairly clear. Nor is he as physical and sharp as he was back then - in a different rugby era. Further to this, the NZ 10, 12, 13 would be (for instance) Cruden, Carter, Smith... how's that for lack of punch!

Fantastic performance from Barrett, and the guy clearly looks comfortable, but he was behind Tusi Pisi at the 'Canes 10 weeks ago with huge questions over his defense. Until he shows for me that he can consistently boss a team for a season the way that Cruden has - through thick and thin - he is still 3 in the pecking order. This isn't to say it will always be this way!

Final thought: Tawera Kerr-Barlow is skittery and erratic

 

[ABs2011]

It' strange to me how quick people are to criticize Cruden. He has won 2 Super Rugby ***les consecutively, leading from ten with a good but hardly star-studded team, has never lost a test match starting 10, he lead us confidently (from nowhere) in the World Cup semifinal against Australia, he captained NZ20s to a WC and lead little old Manawatu to a Championship final. He is a clear common denominator in successful systems and team cultures.

When fit his goalkicking is as good as anyone's, and his decision making with the ball is second to none. He is an outstanding leader and communicator, and is quite clearly a better defender than Barrett (although Barrett is improving to the point that it will not be an issue going forward) and he simply exudes success.

Dan Carter was awful against England last year. Awful. And he has clearly lost a bit of the spark from earlier in his career, not to mention the fact that he can't stop getting injured. That being said, if he's still fit and keen, you'd clearly pick him. Not at 12 though, whoever said that needs to think before they type. When DC played 12, the game was very different, the position was for players like Mauger and Giteau who were distributors and clever kickers. The flat defensive and attack lines that are so prominent these days have altered the position and brought forth a wave of big, cart-horse types: Ma'a Nonu, Jamie Roberts et al. How Dan's increasingly creaky body would stand up to the rigors of the position is fairly clear. Nor is he as physical and sharp as he was back then - in a different rugby era. Further to this, the NZ 10, 12, 13 would be (for instance) Cruden, Carter, Smith... how's that for lack of punch!

Fantastic performance from Barrett, and the guy clearly looks comfortable, but he was behind Tusi Pisi at the 'Canes 10 weeks ago with huge questions over his defense. Until he shows for me that he can consistently boss a team for a season the way that Cruden has - through thick and thin - he is still 3 in the pecking order. This isn't to say it will always be this way!

Final thought: Tawera Kerr-Barlow is skittery and erratic

Agree with everything you have said (except I think you are a bit harsh on Kerr-Barlow). I'm still surprised it is necessary to document in detail like this why Cruden is preferred over Barrett. For me it is simply not an issue at all at this point in time. As you say, in a year or two things may be different though although Barrett would need to improve in several key areas before this debate will seriously start.

As for Carter, for me he looks like he is just cruising at 80% most games. Maybe it is because the ABs and Crusaders "should" win even if he is not playing to his highest level, maybe he is trying to avoid injury, or maybe he has just fallen off the pace a bit and can only put in a dominant performance once every 4 or 5 games now?? The odd game he fires up he still looks like the best 10 in the world, he runs hard at the line and creates all sorts of problems for the opposition and all sorts of space for his outsides, but consistency is key at the highest level and he does not appear to have that anymore. Add to that all his injuries and you can only suspect he will be ousted for the No. 1 position my Cruden sometime soon.

Final thought - Augustine Pulu will be challenging for an AB spot soon enough. Maybe give him another year in Super Rugby (I suspect Rennie will give him much more game time this year) and he will be a huge impact player off the bench. Very exciting player as anyone will know that has been watching Counties this year.