Barrett ahead of Cruden? Carter near the end?

[Jack Reacher]

Not just basing this on Saturdays performance but, every time Barrett has put on the Black jersey he has played well, whereas Cruden has struggled a bit with a few good performances thrown in.
Barrett's goal kicking is more reliable as is his defence, only issue is his line kicking and taking the ball forward himself. Carter is out of form and even though I think hes the second best player in the sports history ever (behind Richie) and I am obsessed with his personal points tally increasing, I don't think Dan will last till 2015 - not just injury wise - I think come next season the selectors will have a very difficult decision to make on his form and desire, especially seeing he will miss the Autumn English series and whether or not he is just playing to further his legacy.
Barrett should be first choice for the rest of the season, we've got to relax our obsession with winning EVERY game and use the rest of this year to try things. Not to rush Dan and Richie back in so we can win a dead rubber against Aus.
Also give Piutau a run too. Dunno if its Dagg's lack of confidence or the game plan but he hasn't brought the ball back with venom once this season. Piutau has, and proved his steadiness at the back too on Sat.
Food for thought

 

[jessta]

I agree with on many opinions here. Its time to start considering carter and richie more so as squad members now, rather then instant starters (more so carter). I dont know about anyone else, but I felt saturday was the first game I truley didnt miss carter or richie, usually when one dosnt play (more so richie in this case) theres a sense of incompletion maybe sadness if you like. But on saturday I didnt feel that. I do think both carter and richie will make the 2015 squad, but highly doubt they will start. Cruden should still start over barrett vs arg, but for sure has earned himself more gametime off the bench. And piutau definantly deserves a starting crack. 1. His in better form then dagg and 2. To reignight dagg to his old self

 

[Icemn]

nope, cruden is better than barrett

in fact, i think cruden is beter than carter, carter being at the peak of his performance and starting to slowly drop...

cruden, carter, barrett, taylor...god knows... then slade :lol:

cruden's defence and attack is better than cruden, barrett's goal kicking is beter than cruden's

 

[Gavin]

Oh to be New Zealand and have 3-4 quality 10s

 

[Jaguares]

New Zealand have many 5/8, and high quality. The problem in New Zealand will be when Conrad Smith retire. There are many strong centers as Nonu, SBW, Rene Ranger, Robbie Fruean, but don't have a smart centre like Conrad, will be difficult to find a clever center and with such good defense.

Cheers

 

[Jack Reacher]

Good to have options. I like a running 5/8 rather than a distributer, especially with Nonu at 2/5. We are a bit one dimensional when we lose our pattern. Teams can pick us off easy. Carter has been guilty of that for a couple years now and Cruden is obviously his understudy where Barrett has his own tricks.
Nice problem to have and so quickly since WC disaster!

 

[smartcooky]

I see Carter as a possible 2nd 5/8 option as well (after all, that is where he started his All Black career). I find a Cruden/Carter combination quite an exciting prospect. Both players take the ball to the line, and both are great distributors. Also, it would give a right and left foot kicking option in the inside backs.

I think a Barrett/Carter combination would work almost as well.

 

[Draggs]

Not just basing this on Saturdays performance but, every time Barrett has put on the Black jersey he has played well, whereas Cruden has struggled a bit with a few good performances thrown in.
Barrett's goal kicking is more reliable as is his defence, only issue is his line kicking and taking the ball forward himself. Carter is out of form and even though I think hes the second best player in the sports history ever (behind Richie) and I am obsessed with his personal points tally increasing, I don't think Dan will last till 2015 - not just injury wise - I think come next season the selectors will have a very difficult decision to make on his form and desire, especially seeing he will miss the Autumn English series and whether or not he is just playing to further his legacy.
Barrett should be first choice for the rest of the season, we've got to relax our obsession with winning EVERY game and use the rest of this year to try things. Not to rush Dan and Richie back in so we can win a dead rubber against Aus.
Also give Piutau a run too. Dunno if its Dagg's lack of confidence or the game plan but he hasn't brought the ball back with venom once this season. Piutau has, and proved his steadiness at the back too on Sat.
Food for thought

...what?

 

[Patchey]

new zealand have many 5/8, and high quality. The problem in new zealand will be when conrad smith retire. There are many strong centers as nonu, sbw, rene ranger, robbie fruean, but don't have a smart centre like conrad, will be difficult to find a clever center and with such good defense.

Cheers

ben smith

 

[ABs2011]

Not just basing this on Saturdays performance but, every time Barrett has put on the Black jersey he has played well, whereas Cruden has struggled a bit with a few good performances thrown in.
Barrett's goal kicking is more reliable as is his defence, only issue is his line kicking and taking the ball forward himself. Carter is out of form and even though I think hes the second best player in the sports history ever (behind Richie) and I am obsessed with his personal points tally increasing, I don't think Dan will last till 2015 - not just injury wise - I think come next season the selectors will have a very difficult decision to make on his form and desire, especially seeing he will miss the Autumn English series and whether or not he is just playing to further his legacy.
Barrett should be first choice for the rest of the season, we've got to relax our obsession with winning EVERY game and use the rest of this year to try things. Not to rush Dan and Richie back in so we can win a dead rubber against Aus.
Also give Piutau a run too. Dunno if its Dagg's lack of confidence or the game plan but he hasn't brought the ball back with venom once this season. Piutau has, and proved his steadiness at the back too on Sat.
Food for thought

Good discussion point but wow, I'm not sure what rugby you've been watching? Particularly the bit about defense. It is well understood that Barrett's D is an issue. Cruden's D is quite solid for a 10 (not as good as Carter arguably but way better than Barrett). Goal kicking? Mate I wish I had the stats on hand but from observation Cruden's goal kicking is significantly better than Barrett's...

Don't get me wrong, Barrett was impressive off the bench v SA, but one game doesn't make him better than the rest.

I agree with Icemn - Cruden is superior to Barrett and arguably even better than DC now. Hard to make calls on this based on international rugby alone as none have played that much lately. BUT if you've watched much Super Rugby over the last couple years Cruden has been far superior than the rest. He is the whole package; running, kicking, passing, D... he has it all!!

DC is still a very good player, still one of the worlds best when he decides to turn it on. His experience, leadership and understanding of the game must not be underestimated. Barrett is on the improve and I hope to see him more and more in the AB jersey as I believe once DC goes, Barrett will be a fine back-up to Cruden. But for me Cruden is #1 now although in reality is a 50-50 call with the edge to Carter in the selectors eyes due to experience (particularly in the big games). Ask you serlf, if the WC final was tomorrow, and all three were fit, who would start??

Disc: Slight Manawatu bias!! (Cruden might even play ITM cup this week I here ;_

 

[Patchey]

Good discussion point but wow, I'm not sure what rugby you've been watching? Particularly the bit about defense. It is well understood that Barrett's D is an issue. Cruden's D is quite solid for a 10 (not as good as Carter arguably but way better than Barrett). Goal kicking? Mate I wish I had the stats on hand but from observation Cruden's goal kicking is significantly better than Barrett's...

Don't get me wrong, Barrett was impressive off the bench v SA, but one game doesn't make him better than the rest.

I agree with Icemn - Cruden is superior to Barrett and arguably even better than DC now. Hard to make calls on this based on international rugby alone as none have played that much lately. BUT if you've watched much Super Rugby over the last couple years Cruden has been far superior than the rest. He is the whole package; running, kicking, passing, D... he has it all!!

DC is still a very good player, still one of the worlds best when he decides to turn it on. His experience, leadership and understanding of the game must not be underestimated. Barrett is on the improve and I hope to see him more and more in the AB jersey as I believe once DC goes, Barrett will be a fine back-up to Cruden. But for me Cruden is #1 now although in reality is a 50-50 call with the edge to Carter in the selectors eyes due to experience (particularly in the big games). Ask you serlf, if the WC final was tomorrow, and all three were fit, who would start??

Disc: Slight Manawatu bias!! (Cruden might even play ITM cup this week I here ;_

Really? I don't have stats either but I thought the main reason Anscombe kicked for the Chiefs last Super Rugby season was because Cruden's kikcing wasn't up to scratch. Can any Chiefs fans comment?

 

[Larksea]

Really? I don't have stats either but I thought the main reason Anscombe kicked for the Chiefs last Super Rugby season was because Cruden's kicking wasn't up to scratch. Can any Chiefs fans comment?

Cruden carried an injury into the season which is why he didn't kick early on.

that said Crudens goal kicking has not been that good this year. He has always lacked range but last year his accuracy was superb. his standards have dropped a bit this year once his injury cleared and he started kicking again.

I would rate NZ's goal kickers:

Taylor
carter
Anscombe
Barrett
Cruden

last year Cruden would have been #2-3

In crudens defence he obviously improved his kicking when he came into the AB's camp and worked on it with the skills coaches. He was pretty poor towards the end of super rugby. Really Anscombe should have kicked goals in the final.

When Barrett is good. He is really really good. I think he kicked something crazy like 9+? goals in one game for the naki. And he has good range.

Carter is still a great kicker and great 10, I really dont think he has dropped off or been overtaken as some suggest. He has had a few injuries and been a bit unsettled but when fit should be the #1 option.

Tom Taylor has been clearly the best and most consistent goal kicker in the NZ game basically since he made his debut for Canterbury.

Personally I think Barrett is pretty much on a par with Cruden right now and the main reason is that his defense has clearly improved in the All Black environment. I still think Barrett has the most potential of the 10s in the NZ game right now and eventually will overtake Cruden... and even Carter.

We have crazy depth at 7 and 10 now, the main concerns Now are hooker and center. Yes Ben Smith could easily fill Conrad shoes but I dont want to see that I mean hes the best 14-15 in NZ!?

long term Charles Piutau could be an option at 13, short term Crotty or Ben Smith would cover. I also think Charlie Ngatai is starting to really mature, still young and starting to really look like AB material - only thing really holding him back is that chiefs players rotate so much only a handfull are regular starters: Messam, Cruden, Retalick, latimer, Tiko, TKB, Clarke - the rest rotated a LOT.

 

[ABs2011]

Really? I don't have stats either but I thought the main reason Anscombe kicked for the Chiefs last Super Rugby season was because Cruden's kikcing wasn't up to scratch. Can any Chiefs fans comment?

I guess I was considering 2012 more than 2013 as like you say, Anscombe kicked for the Chiefs, but rightfuly so as he is one of the best goal kickers in NZ (ahead of all three ABs). But as Larksea says, Cruden was injured too.

Stats on kicking are hard to come by but I found these on 2012:

Mid way through 2012 (super rugby) Cruden was kicking at 81%, Barrett at only 70% - my guess is those stats are indicative of the whole season (although I can't seem to find the complete stats). Anyone help?

 

[Gena_ZA]

Barrett had a good game against a sub SA side due to known reasons.
Cruden in my view is a better all rounded player and better kicker
Colin Slade being fit tops both of them

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I hate you, NZ but I mean that in the best way possible.

 

[Jack Reacher]

My comments are on Test rugby. Super Rugby is a great selectors tool but certain players time and time again cant make that step up - too many to name now and start arguments! Barrett has ALWAYS delivered on the big stage and keeps improving where Cruden has always been a stop gap player, and had plenty of starts and game time. Can't really remember anything amazing from him in his short career. Aus semi, maybe, first half Ireland third test 2012 ok.
He is todays Tony Brown, good but not the long term option. Who knows, they are all still young enough but none of them are really putting their hands up the way Mehrtens and Carter did when they burst onto the seen.
Is there a 19-20 old running about now setting the ITM cup on fire?

 

[Draggs]

I see Carter as a possible 2nd 5/8 option as well (after all, that is where he started his All Black career). I find a Cruden/Carter combination quite an exciting prospect. Both players take the ball to the line, and both are great distributors. Also, it would give a right and left foot kicking option in the inside backs.

I think a Barrett/Carter combination would work almost as well.

Wasn't Carter a second five for Cameron McIntyre years ago for the Crusaders?

 

[Patchey]

My comments are on Test rugby. Super Rugby is a great selectors tool but certain players time and time again cant make that step up - too many to name now and start arguments! Barrett has ALWAYS delivered on the big stage and keeps improving where Cruden has always been a stop gap player, and had plenty of starts and game time. Can't really remember anything amazing from him in his short career. Aus semi, maybe, first half Ireland third test 2012 ok.
He is todays Tony Brown, good but not the long term option. Who knows, they are all still young enough but none of them are really putting their hands up the way Mehrtens and Carter did when they burst onto the seen.
Is there a 19-20 old running about now setting the ITM cup on fire?

Isn't that because Carter is, when fit, the starting ten and until when he broke through neither Cruden or Barret are being played in the centres alongside Carter?

 

[ABs2011]

My comments are on Test rugby. Super Rugby is a great selectors tool but certain players time and time again cant make that step up - too many to name now and start arguments! Barrett has ALWAYS delivered on the big stage and keeps improving where Cruden has always been a stop gap player, and had plenty of starts and game time. Can't really remember anything amazing from him in his short career. Aus semi, maybe, first half Ireland third test 2012 ok.
He is todays Tony Brown, good but not the long term option. Who knows, they are all still young enough but none of them are really putting their hands up the way Mehrtens and Carter did when they burst onto the seen.
Is there a 19-20 old running about now setting the ITM cup on fire?

Couldn't disagree more! I think you just havent had a chance to watch him enough. Cruden is a fantastic player, IMO on the verge of becoming the AB #1.
You say you want to look at test match rugby only, which for a start is a strange thing to do given the majority of the rugby we have seen both men play is at Super Rugby level, and particularly because Barrett has had such limited international game time, how many games has Barrett started? 1 game is it against Italy?? and the rest of the bench? Maybe he has started 2, I can't recall though.

But lets go with your selective analysis; Cruden has been given the opportunities at 10 plain and simply because he is a better option than Barrett, a significantly superior player. I think what happens is that some marginal fans flick on the TV and see a player do a couple good runs and get convinced he is the next big thing, and forget that rugby is much more than running the ball. Don't get me wrong Barrett is a good player and may even surpass Cruden eventually (I doubt it though), he will certainly be a great backup and bench option as he can cover 15 as well.

Did you watch game one of the RC in Sydney? Cruden was very good in that game - far more impressive than Barrett against a 14 man SA squad at home in NZ. I would also urge you to look at the last couple years of Super Rugby as well. Cruden has been masterful two years in a row leading his team to two championships. Barrett had a good year in 2012, and was OK this year, but he has significant deficiencies in D, his all round kicking game needs work and his goal kicking is average. Cruden on the other hand is the whole package now.

No doubt in my mind who the next #1 10 is in NZ

 

[ABs2011]

Is there a 19-20 old running about now setting the ITM cup on fire?

Not from what I have seen TBH. Ihaia West from HB look exciting (he's only 21), but he lacks an all round game. But why on earth do we need any?

NZ have 5 QUALITY 10s - arguably any one of them would/could start for any international team in the world. Certianly I think any team would kill to have either DC or Cruden and slowly but surely Barrett is getting toward that standard as well.

Cruden is only 24, Barrett is 22, and then you have Tom Taylor 24, and even Colin Slade is still only 25. The ABs are set at 10 for some time now. Maybe some kid coming through the ranks will put forawrd a case, but it will be a bloody tough ask to crack the ABs with all these guys around...