Another Wales 'Probables vs Possibles' test?

[AzaMatt]

After the heavy defeat to England and possibly (and likely) a whitewash against new zealand. Do you think it would be a good idea for the WRU to hold another 'trial' match before the autumn internationals or maybe next year?

Granted the last time this happend (2014) the possibles were dominated by the regular guys. on current form though i think a team of possibles would push the main team very close.

The possibles could include talented players such as sam davies, ellis jenkins, james davies etc but also include some of the wales U20 stars. The way the U20 wales team play could counteract the bish bash bosh of the senior wales team. They play alot like england did against us on sunday, fast paced running a good handling skills (for the most part).

Even a Wales U20's v Senior Wales team would be a great match to watch although this is very unlikely to happen.

i think Gatland needs to give the senior lads a good kick up the backside and start naming some more fringe players. if our mainstays cannot perform fairly consistantly then its about time we blooded more youngsters just like Gatland did in the 2011 world cup

what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Peat]

I don't think you have enough tight five players of the right standard to give the Possibles a chance up front against the Probables, and if they don't have a chance up front, what's the point?

Incidentally, I think your tight five is your main problem now.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

After the heavy defeat to England and possibly (and likely) a whitewash against new zealand. Do you think it would be a good idea for the WRU to hold another 'trial' match before the autumn internationals or maybe next year?

Granted the last time this happend (2014) the possibles were dominated by the regular guys. on current form though i think a team of possibles would push the main team very close.

The possibles could include talented players such as sam davies, ellis jenkins, james davies etc but also include some of the wales U20 stars. The way the U20 wales team play could counteract the bish bash bosh of the senior wales team. They play alot like england did against us on sunday, fast paced running a good handling skills (for the most part).

Even a Wales U20's v Senior Wales team would be a great match to watch although this is very unlikely to happen.

i think Gatland needs to give the senior lads a good kick up the backside and start naming some more fringe players. if our mainstays cannot perform fairly consistantly then its about time we blooded more youngsters just like Gatland did in the 2011 world cup

what are your thoughts on this?

Not the way to go. As it stands what Wales needs is a better standard of coaching. The players are there, people and people from the outside looking in don't see this. Wales as it stands lacks top quality coaching, Wales has the odd promising coach but nothing stand out. Compare that with other nations they possess some real good coaches who are able to develop the talent in those countries.

On top of that, selecting the right players to match the right game plans is what is needed. How the likes of Ellis Jenkins was ignored prior to Lydiate's injury is a big point.

I don't think you have enough tight five players of the right standard to give the Possibles a chance up front against the Probables, and if they don't have a chance up front, what's the point?

Incidentally, I think your tight five is your main problem now.

Disagree completely, have enough tight five at our disposal.

What I do like at the moment is how the vultures have begun to circulate around the Welsh game ... again.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Having "enough" front five doesn't equate to Wales having enough quality in the front 5.

Vultures are circling because when you talk the talk you have to be able to walk the walk. Wales have failed to do so and everyone can see that apart from the most delusional Welsh fan.

 

[AzaMatt]

I cannot see the coaching setup changing anytime soon which is a shame as something needs to change.

on the day though its down to the players, they have to shoulder some of the blame as there were a lot of individual errors/missed tackles during that game. You can't put it down to an off day either as we have been gradually getting worse over the last few years.

People always say oh its because we do not have a plan B, that's not the problem, at the moment we aren't even executing plan A. no idea why the players didn't seem up to it but part of the issue could be complacency, how many of that starting team are playing to retain their spot?

By the same logic you would think Gatland and co would be worried too but I don't think they are, they are just stating there were positives to the game which there were for maybe 20 mins at most which they surely can't deem to be acceptable.

what worries me more is that if we play well in the six nations next year, this will all be forgotten about again which is not right. we will end up becoming france in the vein of "which wales team will turn up today"

this may come across me being all negative but of course im still 100% behind the team but its just frustrating that we have so much talent that isnt getting used, i dont believe that our team is only capable of 'warrenball'. thats just how they are coached at the moment, people often put this down to gatland but surely this tactic stems from our 'attack' coach howley. heres hoping somewhere down the line Stephen Jones gets a shot, he's done some great work with the scarlets

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Having "enough" front five doesn't equate to Wales having enough quality in the front 5.

Vultures are circling because when you talk the talk you have to be able to walk the walk. Wales have failed to do so and everyone can see that apart from the most delusional Welsh fan.

Opinion is that. We do have the quality up front, not utilized properly, talent is there incorrectly coached. Talking from experience here too.

Don't think I have ever bigged up Wales really on this forum ... so don't tar me or others with the same brush as you seemingly want to paint. The vultures are also the ones who quickly circle when others are doing not so well but when they themselves are struggling quietly pull their necks in.

I cannot see the coaching setup changing anytime soon which is a shame as something needs to change.

on the day though its down to the players, they have to shoulder some of the blame as there were a lot of individual errors/missed tackles during that game. You can't put it down to an off day either as we have been gradually getting worse over the last few years.

People always say oh its because we do not have a plan B, that's not the problem, at the moment we aren't even executing plan A. no idea why the players didn't seem up to it but part of the issue could be complacency, how many of that starting team are playing to retain their spot?

By the same logic you would think Gatland and co would be worried too but I don't think they are, they are just stating there were positives to the game which there were for maybe 20 mins at most which they surely can't deem to be acceptable.

what worries me more is that if we play well in the six nations next year, this will all be forgotten about again which is not right. we will end up becoming france in the vein of "which wales team will turn up today"

this may come across me being all negative but of course im still 100% behind the team but its just frustrating that we have so much talent that isnt getting used, i dont believe that our team is only capable of 'warrenball'. thats just how they are coached at the moment, people often put this down to gatland but surely this tactic stems from our 'attack' coach howley. heres hoping somewhere down the line Stephen Jones gets a shot, he's done some great work with the scarlets

Agree with this.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Best thing that a Probables vs Possibles test could bring is that coaches that aren't the current lot will be in the system/working with the players for a week or two.


Edit: Just realised that's what's been said above, really

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Best thing that a Probables vs Possibles test could bring is that coaches that aren't the current lot will be in the system/working with the players for a week or two.


Edit: Just realised that's what's been said above, really

Would love to see the likes of Dai Young return and see what he could do. Still my favorite once Gatland goes.

 

[Peat]

Disagree completely, have enough tight five at our disposal.

What I do like at the moment is how the vultures have begun to circulate around the Welsh game ... again.

Who would be the possibles loosehead and locks then? I presume you do have better locks than Turnbull, but if one of James or Jenkins was starting against Lee, I think that ends one way only.

And fair enough if you disagree, but what I've seen is a front row that's not up to Jenkins-Hibbard-Jones, very thin lock depth, and not enough guys with the athleticism to drive Gatlandball against the best. In every other area of the pitch you'd expect to be big Lions contributors but not here.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Who would be the possibles loosehead and locks then? I presume you do have better locks than Turnbull, but if one of James or Jenkins was starting against Lee, I think that ends one way only.

And fair enough if you disagree, but what I've seen is a front row that's not up to Jenkins-Hibbard-Jones, very thin lock depth, and not enough guys with the athleticism to drive Gatlandball against the best. In every other area of the pitch you'd expect to be big Lions contributors but not here.

Rob Evans, Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, Nicky Smith, Chris Domachowski, Wyn Jones (this guy can play, not gone in through the regional academy system but he is seriously good!). At locks, you have AWJ, Charteris, Bradley Davies, Ball, Thornton, Beard. Jenkins did scrummage against Lee quite recently in the Blues vs Scarlets game ... Jenkins came off the better

The Jenkins - Hibbard - Jones was a mighty front row that was probably at their peak under the old scrummaging engagement laws. Under the new laws, Jones has struggled as he was a prop who was great on the 'hit', take that away and he has struggled. I agree with you we haven't got anything that measures up to that, but we have players who can do a job internationally.

 

[Bluemoon]

Probables versus probables was a terrible idea. It did nothing for the so called probables as they had never really played together and effectively had to take on Wales 1sts.

I think if you are looking to develop players then reinstating a Wales A side would be good for that.

I think that there aren't many players coming through that fit Gatlands idea of how he wants Wales to play. Plenty of players looking to play a wider and faster game coming through. Would love to see Anscombe at 10 but he doesn't fit into the current Welsh aerial game.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Opinion is that. We do have the quality up front, not utilized properly, talent is there incorrectly coached. Talking from experience here too.

Don't think I have ever bigged up Wales really on this forum ... so don't tar me or others with the same brush as you seemingly want to paint. The vultures are also the ones who quickly circle when others are doing not so well but when they themselves are struggling quietly pull their necks in.

It's an opinion backed up by a solid body of evidence. When I see a prop of 100 plus caps butcher a try in the first 3 minutes in a QF of an RWC because he's thrown it over the head of Tyler Morgan for a certain try then you know that is not down to coaching. That's lack of a rugby brain. And if Wales most capped prop can't do the basics then that doesn't say a lot for the quality of the props underneath Gethin Jenkins.

Vultures as you refer to them are also those who legitimately criticise Wales Seniors. When Gatland says judge me on the RWC and when Wales yet again fail playing the same turgid style and WRU still don't get rid of all the coaching staff, it suggests that no world class coaching team in the world is going suddenly coach Wales into a top 3 side, which they aspire to be; because the quality isn't there any in sufficient numbers.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Possibles vs probables is stupid, you have a side that have played together and been coached by the Welsh coaches vs players who have never played together or had extensive international coaching or game experience. It will be a rout by the probables every time. A better idea would be 2 teams with mixed possibles and probables and then see which players stand out. Wales 1st can beat many NH sides so expecting Wales 2nd to beat them is a daft thing to ask.

 

[Peat]

Rob Evans, Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, Nicky Smith, Chris Domachowski, Wyn Jones (this guy can play, not gone in through the regional academy system but he is seriously good!). At locks, you have AWJ, Charteris, Bradley Davies, Ball, Thornton, Beard. Jenkins did scrummage against Lee quite recently in the Blues vs Scarlets game ... Jenkins came off the better

The Jenkins - Hibbard - Jones was a mighty front row that was probably at their peak under the old scrummaging engagement laws. Under the new laws, Jones has struggled as he was a prop who was great on the 'hit', take that away and he has struggled. I agree with you we haven't got anything that measures up to that, but we have players who can do a job internationally.

Can do a job isn't good enough against very good players, by and large. Obviously great players will pull do a job lads along with them, but too many in close proximity is fatal. And I think that's what you guys have these days (although a lot of them are young and still improving).

Where's BBD been the last few years? Checked out your 6N line-ups and he hasn't been there. Not sure I rate Jake Ball.

Bloody hell Rory Thornton's big :mellow: I'd heard the name but hadn't seen much of him. How close are he/Beard?

And fair play to Jenkins! Not sure why Nicky Smith isn't used more (heard he's seen as not fit enough, but he'd be a big boost if he came through). Next you'll be telling me he did it with Scott Andrews and I'll be quite embarrassed for poor Samson.

 

[Bluemoon]

It's an opinion backed up by a solid body of evidence. When I see a prop of 100 plus caps butcher a try in the first 3 minutes in a QF of an RWC because he's thrown it over the head of Tyler Morgan for a certain try then you know that is not down to coaching. That's lack of a rugby brain. And if Wales most capped prop can't do the basics then that doesn't say a lot for the quality of the props underneath Gethin Jenkins.

Vultures as you refer to them are also those who legitimately criticise Wales Seniors. When Gatland says judge me on the RWC and when Wales yet again fail playing the same turgid style and WRU still don't get rid of all the coaching staff, it suggests that no world class coaching team in the world is going suddenly coach Wales into a top 3 side, which they aspire to be; because the quality isn't there any in sufficient numbers.

The assertion that you are not making on evidence is that a different coaching team wouldn't create a more effective Wales team. You can't know that, just as I can't know if they'd be better without them. You are inferring that the WRU chose not to change the coaching team because Wales cannot be better than they are. I disagree. WRU cannot change the coaching team because a) it'd be very expensive and b) the team usually does well domestically, which has brought a large amount of money into he WRU. I think we all know that Wales need to change the way they are playing at some point, and we can all agree on that.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

It's an opinion backed up by a solid body of evidence. When I see a prop of 100 plus caps butcher a try in the first 3 minutes in a QF of an RWC because he's thrown it over the head of Tyler Morgan for a certain try then you know that is not down to coaching. That's lack of a rugby brain. And if Wales most capped prop can't do the basics then that doesn't say a lot for the quality of the props underneath Gethin Jenkins.

Vultures as you refer to them are also those who legitimately criticise Wales Seniors. When Gatland says judge me on the RWC and when Wales yet again fail playing the same turgid style and WRU still don't get rid of all the coaching staff, it suggests that no world class coaching team in the world is going suddenly coach Wales into a top 3 side, which they aspire to be; because the quality isn't there any in sufficient numbers.

Come off it. Jenkins widely regarded as having a very good rugby brain, you have isolated an incident ... I could count others were he shown a quality rugby brain, trust me you won't win this argument (could name other props easily who don't pass / lack a rugby brain / don't do the things Jenkins does internationally). If you were to argue say his decline in being a serious scrummager, would agree ... then again nothing to do with his rugby brain.

As for coaching ... players are there, they need someone who can utilize the skill set, much likes Jones will do with England.

Can do a job isn't good enough against very good players, by and large. Obviously great players will pull do a job lads along with them, but too many in close proximity is fatal. And I think that's what you guys have these days (although a lot of them are young and still improving).

Where's BBD been the last few years? Checked out your 6N line-ups and he hasn't been there. Not sure I rate Jake Ball.

Bloody hell Rory Thornton's big :mellow: I'd heard the name but hadn't seen much of him. How close are he/Beard?

And fair play to Jenkins! Not sure why Nicky Smith isn't used more (heard he's seen as not fit enough, but he'd be a big boost if he came through). Next you'll be telling me he did it with Scott Andrews and I'll be quite embarrassed for poor Samson.

Your right, but there are players good enough just a lack of good coaching to get their maximum potential is a worrying issue for me.

Davies I presume you mean by BBD? Has struggled with injury, lacked some international form, not been in Gatland's mind etc but is another who for me seems to blow hot and cold. I still remember the game he played for Wales after his mother died, 2013 ... Wales vs France on the Friday Night. Just remember him steam rolling and being an exceptional player that night. It was a glimpse of how good he can be, it has been few and far between in the Welsh shirt. When I watch him for Wasps he is a different animal, get him in the Welsh shirt ... it almost seems like he can't do the basics right. Prone to mistakes in the lineout for example, but seems to lead it when he plays for Wasps (I could be wrong here, just my take). With Ball, he's another. Had one good game and another decent but it is not good enough. The question should be why can he play well for the Scarlets but not like that for Wales? Coaching? Ability? Standard? Take any combination as you like and you will get the answer.

Thornton featured well for the Ospreys towards the end of the season, my one gripe with the Ospreys signing Bradley Davies is that it could impact on his appearances early doors. Everytime I watch him he just seems to improve, lots of pressure on him, media and fans expectation for him to deliver.

Smith is in danger of not developing, his loose game is good, but his scrummaging at times can be left to the imagination. His injury that he suffered last season (?), with Wales has hampered him too. Have seen him beat his opposition man but I have also seen him take a beating, a combination of good position / good pack and poor position / poor pack and good opposition. I am surprised they have not involved him more, I am adamant, that Evans, Jenkins and Smith should be the three options for Wales.

If Scott Andrews comes near the Welsh squad then you have my permission to beat me up! Embarrassing, when he was with Wales U20s ... he was the next big thing. Yet has never developed, had one decent outing for Wales but never shown anything of his early prominence. Tight Head ... Hooker ... Second Row ... Hooker ... then Tight Head ... he has quite the journey.

 

[dullonien]

I do agree on many of your point Cymro re coaching. I think the Cardiff Blues is the perfect example of how a quality coach can come in, and turn things around with roughly the same squad of players. Still a work in progress, but the players are obviously responding with displays showing far more commitment and passion.

However, I do think that more players than some of us allow ourselves to realise, are a step or two below the quality required to take the next step. I know that I've become very over critical of many of the players, but it's born out of frustration waiting for them to prove that they are capable of developing their games, and becoming the kind of rounded players that is required at the highest level against the best. Coaching explains some of it, but imo it's a combination, and until we're willing to put some of our more experienced players under pressure for their places, we're never going to develop.

 

[Peat]

I think I know the answer but just so I'm sure, we talking bad coaching at the regions, at international level, or both?

 

[dullonien]

Both imo. Basic skills of the players aren't good enough, and it's a little late to do much about that in the short time their in camp with wales. More should still be done by Gats & co though to improve them.

 

[j'nuh]

Without fans and a big viewer base, the regions struggle for finance and corporate deals. Without these, the regions do not have the money for good coaches and to bring in players to raise the standard. I think it all comes back to growing the game in Wales.

I don't think it helps that all of the stadiums are bunched up across the Southern coast of Wales. It's literally a 25 minute drive from the Liberty to Parc y Scarlets, and similar from Cardiff Arms to Rodney. Rather than trying to equalise the levels of resources amongst the region, Wales should have based two teams in their population centres (Swansea + Cardiff and Newport) and another team elsewhere as a feeder.

I did this last night, when thinking about the places English clubs occupy. Population densities of regions, and the clubs' stadiums locations: