All Black new cap contenders

MotherRucker1 · May 25, 2015

Greatest fullback of all time? Not really. I'd rate Chris Latham ahead of him, and that wasn't even that long ago. (unless joking? hard to tell!)

nickdnz · May 25, 2015

MotherRucker1 said:
Greatest fullback of all time? Not really. I'd rate Chris Latham ahead of him, and that wasn't even that long ago. (unless joking? hard to tell!)

Christian Cullen, Jason Robinson, Chris Latham and probably Percy Montgomery in the last 20 years...

I mean I guess the jury has to be out until Ben Smith is retired - but so far I don't see him as anywhere near a guy like Cullen.

Kiwi_ · May 25, 2015

I love Ben Smith as much as Jeff Wilson, and he's definitely the best #15 in the world at the moment. But he's still got a long way to go until he's called the greatest FB of all time. If he features prominently in us winning this WC then I'd have to agree.

Kiwiwomble · May 25, 2015

BS fan boy here...Cullen was better...hell...wilson might even have been better

Larksea · May 26, 2015

Mills should feature more in these conversations, 100 tests and he was brilliant at times, 2009-2010 all blacks highlights were basically Mills scoring or setting up try after try.

if you include super rugby in the calculations Ben Smith should feature right up there. It's a travesty he wasn't selected more and earlier. Toeava kept him out of the All Blacks for a long time. A talent that the All Blacks coaches invested heavily in but never paid off.

nickdnz · May 26, 2015

Larksea said:
Mills should feature more in these conversations, 100 tests and he was brilliant at times, 2009-2010 all blacks highlights were basically Mills scoring or setting up try after try.

if you include super rugby in the calculations Ben Smith should feature right up there. It's a travesty he wasn't selected more and earlier. Toeava kept him out of the All Blacks for a long time. A talent that the All Blacks coaches invested heavily in but never paid off.

Scoring yes, not so setting up though. I think he is definitely one of the reasons our wingers scored so few tries during that period. Was better IMO early on in his career. Don't know who would argue for him being best of all time either. Very good player, but certainly benefitted from few other great fullbacks in NZ at the period / being Graham Henry's favourite.

austingtir · May 26, 2015

Im serious guys I honestly think he's the best fullback I have ever seen and Iv seen all the ones you mentioned. Out of all of the other ones Mills and Latham are the great allround fullbacks they could do everything but they simply are not as good imo. Wilson is one of my favourite players.... EVER I still see him as a wing converted to fullback probably in the top 3 14's of all time for me.

Cullen was the best running fullback ever no question but he was very predictable for organised defences and after a few years he just didnt have the impact he used to. Which is the real reason he was not selected in 2003 it was not due to injury. Cullen was also a genius when it came to running lines and training and changed the game a great deal world wide so he should be remembered for that also.

nickdnz · May 26, 2015

Cullen had brilliant defense..

Kiwiwomble · May 26, 2015

austingtir said:
Im serious guys I honestly think he's the best fullback I have ever seen and Iv seen all the ones you mentioned. Out of all of the other ones Mills and Latham are the great allround fullbacks they could do everything but they simply are not as good imo. Wilson is one of my favourite players.... EVER I still see him as a wing converted to fullback probably in the top 3 14's of all time for me.

Cullen was the best running fullback ever no question but he was very predictable for organised defences and after a few years he just didnt have the impact he used to. Which is the real reason he was not selected in 2003 it was not due to injury. Cullen was also a genius when it came to running lines and training and changed the game a great deal world wide so he should be remembered for that also.

Interesting...I always saw Wilson as a fullback converted to wing

austingtir · May 26, 2015

Jabby said:
Interesting...I always saw Wilson as a fullback converted to wing

Then thats proof that you should lay off the weed.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0ifazEUYBs

He could play damn near any position in the backline and of been better than most at the end of the day. I remember him playing 11, 14 and 15. Most of them being 14 for the AB's alot at 15 for Otago but he is clearly a specialist wing with mad skills that was also a very good fullback.

He was an idiot for retiring at 28....

nickdnz · May 26, 2015

Jabby said:
Interesting...I always saw Wilson as a fullback converted to wing

Weird, a huge majority of his All Blacks tests were on the wing. It was really only until 1999 that he started being used there regularly. From 1993-1999 he was pretty much always behind Timu/Osbourne/Cullen as a choice at fullback and was really only used at fullback because they were trying to incorporate Umaga, Cullen, Lomu and Wilson in a backline and hadn't worked out to put Umaga at centre rather than Cullen. Even for Otago and Highlanders he was mainly used on the wing.

Kiwi_ · May 26, 2015

You guys are talking in exacts. Ben has the potential to be the greatest full back of all time, come this WC we shall see.

nickdnz · May 26, 2015

Yep. Ben Smith just needs to score 29 more tries in 20 more tests - and then he'll be on par with Cullen. Of course he may want to start playing some of those tests at fullback instead of on the wing - which is where he has spent most of his All Blacks games...

Ossau · May 26, 2015

As a huge fan of BS I don't think he'll be the greatest of all time. He needs to achieve more with the All Blacks and especially at fullback. Maybe the WC will be his chance to shine in front of the planet.
His versatility makes him so essential to the All Blacks imo. Hope He'll keep his outstanding form up!

Kiwi_ · May 26, 2015

TRF_nickdnz said:
Yep. Ben Smith just needs to score 29 more tries in 20 more tests - and then he'll be on par with Cullen. Of course he may want to start playing some of those tests at fullback instead of on the wing - which is where he has spent most of his All Blacks games...

It's natural time can cause people to forget.

Larksea · May 26, 2015

Kiwi_ said:
It's natural time can cause people to forget.

it's not always like that, people still think that michael jones was better than Richie McCaw

Larksea · May 26, 2015

I'm not saying he's better than cullen but Ben Smith has been the best 15 in the world overall from ~2009 till now. His test record doesn't reflect that because he wasn't selected for a while when he should have been and he's been used on the wing and at 13.

His stats and record in super rugby over a long period in a generally below par highlanders outfit are staggering.

Kiwiwomble · May 26, 2015

austingtir said:
Then thats proof that you should lay off the weed.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0ifazEUYBs

He could play damn near any position in the backline and of been better than most at the end of the day. I remember him playing 11, 14 and 15. Most of them being 14 for the AB's alot at 15 for Otago but he is clearly a specialist wing with mad skills that was also a very good fullback.

He was an idiot for retiring at 28....

6 of those 11 are from full back

TRF_nickdnz said:
Weird, a huge majority of his All Blacks tests were on the wing. It was really only until 1999 that he started being used there regularly. From 1993-1999 he was pretty much always behind Timu/Osbourne/Cullen as a choice at fullback and was really only used at fullback because they were trying to incorporate Umaga, Cullen, Lomu and Wilson in a backline and hadn't worked out to put Umaga at centre rather than Cullen. Even for Otago and Highlanders he was mainly used on the wing.

Of course he mostly played for the AB's on the wing, just always felt that was due to cullen , exactly like we're talking about smith playing on the wing to make room for dagg. Can't find any stats on how often the played where so might be wrong but i would have said he played just as often at FB for Otago/Highlanders as he did on the wing.

Kiwi_ · May 27, 2015

Crunch time is coming. If Dagg is not fit for the world cup, what's the plan? Piutau or Skudder? Piutau might be injured to. So it could be Smith, Skudder. But Slade, Barrett, Jane can cover FB, so that might be the case, wouldn't be surprised if Ben Smith ends up playing the whole WC minutes.

MotherRucker1 · May 27, 2015

Piutau. He has to be in the mix for me - things are going to get tight with injuries; he has some experience and can cover wing + fullback. He'd become the second choice fullback if Ben Smith got injured (and Dagg was still injured - which I'm not sure he will be?). If Piutau got injured as well then I'd stick Colin Slade there. Downside to that is, Dan Carter would feature more prominently, but it's kind of a last resort. Carter has looked decent at 10 for the Crusaders, not so much at 12. Sorry, I'm just not really a fan of experimenting and handing out new caps on world cup year.

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