A Political Thread

[ncurd]

My problem is when they say, "it's a new virus so the data isn't there." It may be new, but you can use similar data from similar viruses to at least help.

I've seen both 'sides' use that arguement.

Reality is I know for fact they are using data of similar viruses and models based in huge amounts of research for this very kind of event (all countries are). So anyone suggesting otherwise is talking out their arse.

The only thing is they've never really had virus in its transmission rate/mortality rate window so the one thing for certain is they are mainly working off theory.

 

[Reiser99]

That's wrong. In the case of flu yes kids would spread it but the evidence so far suggests that isn't the case with this. Also for it to have any effect the schools would need shutting for months not weeks. If you have healthcare workers with kids how are they supposed to get into work? Let the kids grandparents look after them?

Again I may be wrong but as far as I can tell the evidence is that children have more mild symptoms than adults. That doesn't relate in anyway to spreading the virus. As for healthcare workers if the government was really proactive they could organise select schools/nurseries to open for children of parents in critical jobs. That way there are less children to spread the virus, but they still have somewhere to go and be cared for.

 

[McTallshort]

Again I may be wrong but as far as I can tell the evidence is that children have more mild symptoms than adults. That doesn't relate in anyway to spreading the virus. As for healthcare workers if the government was really proactive they could organise select schools/nurseries to open for children of parents in critical jobs. That way there are less children to spread the virus, but they still have somewhere to go and be cared for.

Their symptoms are milder so it's no harm them mixing with each other at school than mixing with their grandparents at home. Also it's not just health care works, lorry drivers, supply chain workers, people like me who fix dosing kits in industrial laundries have to still go to work. If a couple of weeks were going to make a difference then I would be all for it but to lessen the impact the schools would need shutting for months which would grind the country to a halt

 

[Which Tyler]

As for healthcare workers if the government was really proactive they could organise select schools/nurseries to open for children of parents in critical jobs. That way there are less children to spread the virus, but they still have somewhere to go and be cared for.

Isn't that what Belgium have done?
Schools are closed, but some remain open in each area for those with parents deemed "essential services" teachers staying on voluntarily (theoretically without coercion - probably genuinely for older teachers and those with comorbidities)

From what I can tell, schools are a much more open debate than other large gatherings.
Absolutely minimal risk of the kids themselves getting badly sick (though the same doesn't apply to teachers), but keeping them together means it's "easy" to keep on top of hygeine / sanitation measures. If you send them home, they'll still mix and spread stuff (more slowly, but faster than adults) you've removed a large portion of the oversight necessary for hygeine / sanitation, and families have to decide between taking a parent out of work, or having vulnerable grandparents do the babysitting.

The same arguments simply don't apply to cinemas, clubs, concerts, sports events etc or even to 6th form colleges / universities, all of which should have been closed since mid-week, even if it does mean interfering with the toffs at Cheltenham Festival!

 

[McTallshort]

Isn't that what Belgium have done?
Schools are closed, but some remain open in each area for those with parents deemed "essential services"

From what I can tell, schools are a much more open debate than other large gatherings.
Absolutely minimal risk of the kids themselves getting badly sick (though the same doesn't apply to teachers), but keeping them together means it's "easy" to keep on top of hygeine / sanitation measures. If you send them home, they'll stick mix and spread stuff (more slowly, but faster than adults) you've removed a large portion of the oversight necessary for hygeine / sanitation, and families have to decide between taking a parent out of work, or having vulnerable grandparents do the babysitting.

The same arguments simply don't apply to cinemas, clubs, concerts, sports events etc or even to 6th form colleges / universities

This. Switching schools off for a couple of months will cause more harm than good. Both my parents have existing health conditions. My ex's mother lives in another country. Never of us can work from home so I'm not sure how we manage for 2 months with me being self employed.

We have tk take a common sense approach to this. We cannot just turn the country off for a couple of months

 

[ncurd]

Well event wise it doesn't matter if government bans or not just about everything I was doing over the next month has just been cancelled in the past hour.

Feel real bad for running buddies doing Marathons huge amount of work goes into training for those

 

[McTallshort]

Well event wise it doesn't matter if government bans or not just about everything I was doing over the next month has just been cancelled in the past hour.

Feel real bad for running buddies doing Marathons huge amount of work goes into training for those

Staying healthy is the best thing you can do. Don't stop running

 

[ncurd]

Staying healthy is the best thing you can do. Don't stop running

Oh I absolutely don't intend to my main event of the year isn't until end of September. Have plenty of things from 1 to 10mile events before that to. Feel for the smaller events though the London marathon can reschedule without much impact. A 5mile race can severely hamper a clubs fiance's for years.

Most will go ahead though.

 

[Reiser99]

but keeping them together means it's "easy" to keep on top of hygeine / sanitation measures.

Are you implying that children at school have better hygiene than at home? Honestly with 1 adult for 30 kids I don't get this logic at all. Schools are some of the worst places for transmission of viruses, hence flu season. However at the moment there is no data to suggest this is the same with Corona. Sure kids may have milder symptoms, but there is nothing about their ability to spread. Assuming they don't spread the virus because they have milder symptoms is pretty flimsy logic. A lot of these decisions are based on computer models, which comes from the chief medical and science officers.

The simple fact is this is about how much of a hit the government is willing to take on the economy, because if they really wanted to then there are possible solutions. @Tallshort You are an example of someone whose kids could be looked after by reduced staff at schools/nurseries. However there will be many other families who can cope or work remotely as more and more jobs are able to be done remotely. However, it was also cost the country billions and that's what the government doesn't want. Maybe I'm to cynical about politicians, but I honestly think economics is driving their thinking just as much as health. Also for me while the government spouts out positive messages such as "this will bring communities together" the reality is that people are selfish and only care about themselves. "People will get isolation fatigue." If people truly cared for others that wouldn't be an issue. Of local authorities could organise small gatherings where people don't interact too much. The government is giving far too much atttention to whether people will complain about how their lives have been inconvenienced.

I've said before we'll see by the end who was right, but the government is certainly gambling big time and it's doing so with people's lives.

 

[McTallshort]

Are you implying that children at school have better hygiene than at home? Honestly with 1 adult for 30 kids I don't get this logic at all. Schools are some of the worst places for transmission of viruses, hence flu season. However at the moment there is no data to suggest this is the same with Corona. Sure kids may have milder symptoms, but there is nothing about their ability to spread. Assuming they don't spread the virus because they have milder symptoms is pretty flimsy logic. A lot of these decisions are based on computer models, which comes from the chief medical and science officers.

The simple fact is this is about how much of a hit the government is willing to take on the economy, because if they really wanted to then there are possible solutions. @Tallshort You are an example of someone whose kids could be looked after by reduced staff at schools/nurseries. However there will be many other families who can cope or work remotely as more and more jobs are able to be done remotely. However, it was also cost the country billions and that's what the government doesn't want. Maybe I'm to cynical about politicians, but I honestly think economics is driving their thinking just as much as health. Also for me while the government spouts out positive messages such as "this will bring communities together" the reality is that people are selfish and only care about themselves. "People will get isolation fatigue." If people truly cared for others that wouldn't be an issue. Of local authorities could organise small gatherings where people don't interact too much. The government is giving far too much atttention to whether people will complain about how their lives have been inconvenienced.

I've said before we'll see by the end who was right, but the government is certainly gambling big time and it's doing so with people's lives.

Yes most probably get better hygiene at school and it can be controlled in a more efficient way

 

[Reiser99]

Yes most probably get better hygiene at school and it can be controlled in a more efficient way

You clearly have never worked at a school.

 

[McTallshort]

You clearly have never worked at a school.

Fair point

 

[Amiga500]

That's wrong. In the case of flu yes kids would spread it but the evidence so far suggests that isn't the case with this.

Sorry what?

Can you provide a link to that please?

Also for it to have any effect the schools would need shutting for months not weeks.

Indeed. So be it.

To be worried about a livelihood you must first have a life.

If you have healthcare workers with kids how are they supposed to get into work? Let the kids grandparents look after them?

In the (I would expect rare) cases where both parents are healthcare workers, I'm sure its not beyond the wit of even this government to provide a relatively isolated childcare option - a very simple solution would be to partially open the schools for only the children of critical workers.

Even if it meant you had 3 or 4 kids in a class, that's a big bit better than 35.

 

[Reiser99]

This is going around on Facebook to show how truly alone in our approach we are.

 

[Amiga500]

I'll bet if you could offer Giuseppe Conte the chance to make any decisions differently from January to now he wouldn't be doing what Bozo is doing.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The UK response really does have a "go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint and wait for this to all blow over" feel about it.

 

[McTallshort]

Sorry what?

Can you provide a link to that please?




Indeed. So be it.

To be worried about a livelihood you must first have a life.



In the (I would expect rare) cases where both parents are healthcare workers, I'm sure its not beyond the wit of even this government to provide a relatively isolated childcare option - a very simple solution would be to partially open the schools for only the children of critical workers.

Even if it meant you had 3 or 4 kids in a class, that's a big bit better than 35.

Pathetic

 

[Which Tyler]

1. Are you implying that children at school have better hygiene than at home? Honestly with 1 adult for 30 kids I don't get this logic at all.
2. Schools are some of the worst places for transmission of viruses, hence flu season. However at the moment there is no data to suggest this is the same with Corona.
3. Sure kids may have milder symptoms, but there is nothing about their ability to spread. Assuming they don't spread the virus because they have milder symptoms is pretty flimsy logic.
4. A lot of these decisions are based on computer models, which comes from the chief medical and science officers.

1. No implication about it, I'm outright stating that they CAN. Schools, when they clamp down on this, are capable of checking and enforcing, at home, it depends on how much attention the parents are paying, especially when the kids are outside without necessarily having a parent around. Schools can be much more consistent.
2. This is true, but not you think this is different from other forms of Coronovirus, that's the bit that needs proof. Oh, and there is evidence, from China and especially, Italy, also France and Germany - we're just not privy to the data.
3. What we do know about it is that kids get this at about the same rates as adults, the symptoms are milder, and the death rate massively lost, but they're just as contagious. The assumption your claiming I've made is the precise opposite of what I'd written.
4. Yes, computer models that are also available to every other country, whilst in Europe, only Germany are taking a similar view (where it's too late) whilst elsewhere, even the US are taking it more seriously, and they've only accepted that it's not essentially a hoax about 48 hours ago.
Before yesterday's announcement, there had been virtually no experts publicly disagreeing with government policy. The same can no longer be said.

ETA, no, sorry, Germany are also doi g more about not than we are.

We say that were trying to control spread. We're just not actually doing anything to control it.

NB: the UK now has more confirmed cases than Wuhan did when they went into lockdown

 

[Which Tyler]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/uk-to-ban-mass-gatherings-in-coronavirus-u-turn

UK finally acts, after... the UK completely ignores Boris and does the right thing regardless.

Now that's leadership!


ETA: helped by an official bollocking from the director general of the WHO: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ntries-to-track-and-trace-every-covid-19-case

 

[Reiser99]

1. No implication about it, I'm outright stating that they CAN. Schools, when they clamp down on this, are capable of checking and enforcing, at home, it depends on how much attention the parents are paying, especially when the kids are outside without necessarily having a parent around. Schools can be much more consistent.
2. This is true, but not you think this is different from other forms of Coronovirus, that's the bit that needs proof. Oh, and there is evidence, from China and especially, Italy, also France and Germany - we're just not privy to the data.
3. What we do know about it is that kids get this at about the same rates as adults, the symptoms are milder, and the death rate massively lost, but they're just as contagious. The assumption your claiming I've made is the precise opposite of what I'd written.
4. Yes, computer models that are also available to every other country, whilst in Europe, only Germany are taking a similar view (where it's too late) whilst elsewhere, even the US are taking it more seriously, and they've only accepted that it's not essentially a hoax about 48 hours ago.
Before yesterday's announcement, there had been virtually no experts publicly disagreeing with government policy. The same can no longer be said.

ETA, no, sorry, Germany are also doi g more about not than we are.

We say that were trying to control spread. We're just not actually doing anything to control it.

NB: the UK now has more confirmed cases than Wuhan did when they went into lockdown

Guess I misunderstood the point of your post a bit. On the schools bit, they can get children to wash their hands etc..., but it is extremely hard to do. 1 adult making sure 30 kids have all washed their hands properly or sending them to the toilet if they cough in class etc... and ensuring they washed properly after is ridiculously difficult. Home is easier, because even if they don't you can keep it clean far easier than a school that caters for 600-900 pupils or more.