A Political Thread

[Which Tyler]

Amongst all the talk of who should lead any potential GNU, I hear Tom Wood has said that he would reluctantly accept the responsibility of Prime Ministership if offered.

 

[McTallshort]

Christ and that's you trying to be clever...

Look man, if you ignore the fact that the nationalist community were subject to Gerrymandering allowed by your government which rendered them more or less without a vote, and you ignore that the RUC and loyalist forces who your former colleagues later colluded with started the violence in response to nationalists peacefully protesting very current grievances, and that a systemic two tiered class system existed well into 90's, and that the British Army stood idle and allowed the UVF force Catholics out of their homes in mixed communities, and that British Occupation in Ireland has been disputed from the second it began, and a whole lot more things in living memory then you can pretend that your government and former employees have played no role in ******* that part of the world up beyond what was ever needed and that Irish people should have just accepted being treated like **** in the 60's and should just accept the GFA (which is literally a recognition that all parties were to blame and a delicate compromise to satisfy everyone) being broken despite everything it has achieved.

But it's a whole lot of pretending, and it's currently one reason why your country is ****** and heading for a no deal brexit because Boris knows that there's enough people like you who will ignore history and blame any violence solely on the Irish and not on the latest example of mismanagement by Westminster of the region. It's another example of politicians using division within the UK for their own benefit.

This isn't an us vs them/you vs me ******* contest by the way, I don't want a border and I don't want violence (I have as much to lose there as anyone not living there could) but you can't ignore a problem over and over and not take any blame when it escalates.

The saddest indictment of worry of violence due to a new border is that after the longest and one of the most unsuccessful military operations your army ever had, after all the criticism and political pressure your government were subject to due to their incompetence in the area, and after a solid and continuing campaign to apologise and rectify anything they possibly could over the past ten years your government will happily and knowingly throw it all away for no discernible reason.

Yeah my former colleagues as you describe them colluded with the PIRA members much more than any loyalists. There were grasses from the small time drug dealers right up to army council members. More Republicans were imprisoned or killed thanks to information given to the security forces by members of the PIRA than by any collusion with those morons in orange.

Also the military operation in NI was possibly one of the most successful counter terrorism operations ever mounted by a modern military. It formed the blue print for urban counter insurgency operations since oh and it made MI5 a world leader in the art of infiltration and intelligence gathering. There was no civil war, PIRA were never able to restrict the movement of the security forces and the GFA was down in the most part by the realisation from Republicans that they could never be able to realise their goals through violent means.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah my former colleagues as you describe them colluded with the PIRA members much more than any loyalists. There were grasses from the small time drug dealers right up to army council members. More Republicans were imprisoned or killed thanks to information given to the security forces by members of the PIRA than by any collusion with those morons in orange.

Also the military operation in NI was possibly one of the most successful counter terrorism operations ever mounted by a modern military. It formed the blue print for urban counter insurgency operations since oh and it made MI5 a world leader in the art of infiltration and intelligence gathering. There was no civil war, PIRA were never able to restrict the movement of the security forces and the GFA was down in the most part by the realisation from Republicans that they could never be able to realise their goals through violent means.

The difference with infiltrating the PIRA and providing the UVF with documents detailing the movements of PIRA members should be so obvious that it's not worth mentioning. One is a legitimate tactic, the other is aiding and abetting an illegal paramilitary organisation to kill.

You've just called an operation where the guts of 1500 military personnel were killed and approximately 150 civilians were killed by the military a success. You're judgment is so clouded, this is why deployment in NI can't happen for the safety of 2.1m people in Ulster.

Also as much as the PIRA* knew they couldn't win the British Army knew they couldn't destroy them and said as much publicly. It was a compromise, it has worked, do what you can to stop your government destroying it, that's what my government is trying to do.

*who I don't endorse at all, the only people who had it right were Hume and his team, the problem was people with his outlook weren't given a voice before paramilitary actions and then when said paramilitaries continued to escalate things Westminster felt any cooperation would be seen as justifying their horrible acts. (Fair to a degree but ultimately lengthened the war)

 

[Gavin]

But the biggest problem for the people in NI wasnt the British army but the divisions between themselves that had more to do with clinging onto past grievances and religious bigotry. That hasn't gone away and the fact that people worry a closed border might reignite past troubles is a rather sad indictment of the people who live there.

Religious bigotry has, IMO, got nothing to do with the problem of NI, it's down to cultural identity. Religious issues are mentioned by people who do not understand NI. It just so happens that nationalists tend to be from Catholic families and unionists from Protestant families.

Suggesting that it's a sad indictment is utterly offensive for progressive people in NI, and those are the ones who are most concerned there could be trouble again.

 

[ncurd]

Yellowhammer (which is not a worse case scenario but a report into the likely event of no deal a separate report exists for that, was written in the last two weeks) has to be one of most terrifying things a country can be said to report. If it does occur I have zero idea how I can look anyone in the face who continues to support 'no deal' Brexit again.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yellowhammer (which is not a worse case scenario but a report into the likely event of no deal a separate report exists for that, was written in the last two weeks) has to be one of most terrifying things a country can be said to report. If it does occur I have zero idea how I can look anyone in the face who continues to support 'no deal' Brexit again.

Hadn't even considered Gibraltar before reading articles about it, they're ******!

 

[ncurd]

Hadn't even considered Gibraltar before reading articles about it, they're ******!

Yup all focus has been on Ireland and how Brexit is ducking them over (I am quite shamed by the fact neither country came up during the referendum and then suddenly everyone remembered days afterwards). We've actually been quite lucky in negotiations that Spain haven't really played hard ball with it.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yellowhammer (which is not a worse case scenario but a report into the likely event of no deal a separate report exists for that, was written in the last two weeks) has to be one of most terrifying things a country can be said to report. If it does occur I have zero idea how I can look anyone in the face who continues to support 'no deal' Brexit again.

But Goebbells II said it was all lies; and a worst case scenario anyway; and from 6+ months ago - despite the document saying that it's "best estimate" of likely outcomes, and including aspects we know were removed 6 months ago whilst including references to PM Johnson and October 31st.

 

[ncurd]

But Goebbells II said it was all lies; and a worst case scenario anyway; and from 6+ months ago - despite the document saying that it's "best estimate" of likely outcomes, and including aspects we know were removed 6 months ago whilst including references to PM Johnson and October 31st.

The sad thing is I have family members who legit believe this ****.

"We know all about Brexit, don't believe it its just scaremongering"

 

[Which Tyler]

The sad thing is I have family members who legit believe this ****.

"We know all about Brexit, don't believe it its just scaremongering"

Yup, but nothing was going to sway them anyway - whereas this IS the first example of Gove's rapid responce ministry of truth - designed to confirm those biases and discredit those who don;t believe that the ***anic captain's moto should have been "no hull is better than a holed hull".

Thankfully no family members drinking that cool aid; but plenty of people I otherwise have full respect for - including respect for their critical thinking ability.

 

[Which Tyler]

I think I might have found the source of the leak

Wish he was an ex-minister

 

[ncurd]

Also man the amount of hate on internet for Jo Swinson for pointing out Corbyn can't command a majority in the current parliament.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Read about Owen Jones getting beaten up outside a pub by right-wingers. Not right of course.

On Corbyn, all I see is another one looking for the keys to number 10 rather than trying to fix this Brexit mess. My own preference would be for Clarke to lead a Unity Government over Harman. Still, can't see that happening.

 

[ncurd]

Clarke for me as well, he has reluctantly voted for the WA but also outspoken on the disaster of no deal whilst also being historically pro EU. He ticks all the boxes to be trusted by all sides that want to stop no deal and not stich them up.

He's also retiring at the end of this parliament so has nothing to gain other than going in the history books as the man who saved Britain from the brink of disaster.

Harman is a good choice as well but I think Clarke is the person they can rally behind. Corbyn of course is the big problem.

 

[ncurd]

Also yeah Owen Jones is a right prick but absolutely should not of happened in anyway shape or form.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And so the return of IRA bombing in Ireland begins...

 

[General Melchett]

When it comes to deciding who should lead any Unity Govt, Parliamentary support from MPs is far more relevant than party membership support. Corbyn needs to show that his desire to stop No deal is greater than his desire to get the keys to No.10.

You would ideally want to have some kind of quick behind the scenes informal leadership contest between 2 or 3 nominees. Clarke, Harman, Corbyn and a Lib Dem candidate if they choose. Of course Corbyn would never agree as it would be humiliating for him when he finishes last.

 

[ncurd]

LDs have called for a unity candidate don't think Swinson is silly enough to propose herself of another LD MP. Cable would of been a possible shout if he hadn't been leader.

 

[General Melchett]

LDs have called for a unity candidate don't think Swinson is silly enough to propose herself of another LD MP. Cable would of been a possible shout if he hadn't been leader.

I think Cable is a bit too pro remain/second referendum to be the Unity candidate. Clarke and Harman looks like the ideal ticket to me. Harman was deputy PM under Brown and is familiar with life at No.10.

What is key is that everyone unites behind whoever is asked/chosen to lead the Unity Government otherwise BoJo and his cronies win.

 

[ncurd]

I see Boris is trying the shorter and louder approach again.

You know if they can provide an answer to how the backstop (which only comes into effect of they can't agree a customs deal after a number of years) isn't required they might get some traction.....