A Political Thread

[Reiser99]

On the subject of the European convention of human rights that Britain wants to replace with its own.



TBH I think most people who voted remain agree that the E.U isn't perfect or working as well as it could. I believe though e should have tried to make it work instead of complaining every time they made a decision, but kept saying we don't want to get more involved. Britain only ever wanted the economic benefits and when we realised that came with a price we were always setting ourselves up to leave.

 

[General Melchett]

Britain only ever wanted the economic benefits and when we realised that came with a price we were always setting ourselves up to leave.

This.

The UK just wanted a F *** buddy in economic terms without all the other relationship stuff.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

This.

The UK just wanted a F *** buddy in economic terms without all the other relationship stuff.

And is that a bad thing really?
Other countries do it.

 

[General Melchett]

And is that a bad thing really?
Other countries do it.

Not necessarily but issues do arise when individual countries start to want different things.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

And is that a bad thing really?
Other countries do it.

What other countries do it without also being involved in free movement and subject to the European courts?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I hate how we hear about these horrible EU regulations being foisted on poor Britain, I've heard it over and over.

Name ONE that was foisted on us against our will.

The vast majority of the bills passed by the EU we have agreed to and even been the drivers behind them. I think less than 5% of the bills that have passed have been ones we didn't want, which is pretty good when you compare to legislatures all round the world, including our own. Lastly, most regulations are a bare minimum and not restrictive.

I heard a story, probably in the daily fail about how the EU was burdening Britain with regulations on sausages. It conveniently didn't mention that the EU regulations were LESS of a burden than ones we already had in Britain and so had no impact on us at all. In fact if we had ditched our own regulations and followed EU ones, it would have been less stringent. But why bother with facts like that when you can do a bit of rabble rousing by telling half the story?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I hate how we hear about these horrible EU regulations being foisted on poor Britain, I've heard it over and over.

Name ONE that was foisted on us against our will.

I'd love to hear any regulations that are disagreeable even.

 

[General Melchett]

Free movement is so badly understood in the UK and the politicians know it and play on it when they're going down the nationalism route with their arguments. So many brainless people think it's related to asylum seekers, refugees, terrorism or Turkey.

The UK has managed to keep the pound and stay out of the Schengen area and yet we still hear politicians claiming we need to take back control of our borders.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Free movement is so badly understood in the UK and the politicians know it and play on it when they're going down the nationalism route with their arguments. So many brainless people think it's related to asylum seekers, refugees, terrorism or Turkey.

The UK has managed to keep the pound and stay out of the Schengen area and yet we still hear politicians claiming we need to take back control of our borders.

pretty naive to think the UK is the only country like that though.
How many European elections have shown an increase in the nationalistic parties?

It really isn't purely a UK issue, despite what some like to think.

What other countries do it without also being involved in free movement and subject to the European courts?

Listen I'm not arguing for Leave or anything, here.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Treaties which the UK subsequently negotiated and signed.

The UK government signed - one with a majority in the HOC. None of the treaties since 1975 have ever gone to referendum such as Maastricht. UK governments ruling a majority party who have never got more than 40 odd percent of the electoral vote.

 

[General Melchett]

pretty naive to think the UK is the only country like that though.
How many European elections have shown an increase in the nationalistic parties?

It really isn't purely a UK issue, despite what some like to think.

Listen I'm not arguing for Leave or anything, here.

Yes on the rise but I'd say it's worse in the UK given that they voted for Brexit and no right wing nationalists have gained power in the other larger countries such as France where Le Penn was soundly beaten.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

pretty naive to think the UK is the only country like that though.
How many European elections have shown an increase in the nationalistic parties?

It really isn't purely a UK issue, despite what some like to think.

It's not a purely UK issue but so far we are the only ones who have allowed it to take us out of the EU.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yes on the rise but I'd say it's worse in the UK given that they voted for Brexit and no right wing nationalists have gained power in the other larger countries such as France where Le Penn was soundly beaten.

It is worst, but it's still rising elsewhere.

EU might like to think it's a mainly UK thing BUT it isn't.
She might have been soundly beaten but the popular vote swing was massive, same with Sweden same with everyone.
UKIP won only 1 seat in the election before Brexit.

If anything Nationalism since Brexit has decreased, whereas it's still growing in most other countries. (Just no other countries would allow a Brexit vote).

It's not a purely UK issue but so far we are the only ones who have allowed it to take us out of the EU.

True.

I just get a bit fed up of other Europeans acting like UK is the outlier in terms of the rise of nationalism, I put a decent chunk of blame to Brexit to the EU who just refused to try and address any issue that was arising at the time being instant it was only the UK that was having issues when these issues have been happening across the continent, and now it's a pretty serious problem for a lot of governments.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

pretty naive to think the UK is the only country like that though.
How many European elections have shown an increase in the nationalistic parties?

It really isn't purely a UK issue, despite what some like to think.



Listen I'm not arguing for Leave or anything, here.

I was just pointing out that other countries don't have that.

The UK government signed - one with a majority in the HOC. None of the treaties since 1975 have ever gone to referendum such as Maastricht. UK governments ruling a majority party who have never got more than 40 odd percent of the electoral vote.

I fail to see your point here. Treaties were negotiated by the UK and passed through the structures in place.

This is also ignoring that the UK were a founding member of the council of europe and were in the EU during the 34 years it took from the idea of a European council being put forward to it's establishment. It's all well and good to say the UK didn't want to be part of this EU but it just doesn't hold water because they continued with it through multiple treaties over a number of decades and now that they're leaving the state of the nation's politics is in turmoil.

 

[General Melchett]

I just get a bit fed up of other Europeans acting like UK is the outlier in terms of the rise of nationalism, I put a decent chunk of blame to Brexit to the EU who just refused to try and address any issue that was arising at the time being instant it was only the UK that was having issues when these issues have been happening across the continent, and now it's a pretty serious problem for a lot of governments.

I blame the Tories (and David Cameron) more than the EU. The EU never asked the UK to have a referendum and never asked them to leave. The free movement, free trade etc. pillars were established and accepted by consensus and the EU can't change the rules because of a surge in nationalism and populism in certain countries.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I was just pointing out that other countries don't have that.



I fail to see your point here. Treaties were negotiated by the UK and passed through the structures in place.

This is also ignoring that the UK were a founding member of the council of europe and were in the EU during the 34 years it took from the idea of a European council being put forward to it's establishment. It's all well and good to say the UK didn't want to be part of this EU but it just doesn't hold water because they continued with it through multiple treaties over a number of decades and now that they're leaving the state of the nation's politics is in turmoil.

The point is that once that this is really the 2nd referendum on Europe that the UK electorate has had on what relationship with Europe. Yes UK parliament ratified each of the subsequent treaties which changed the EEC which was made up of what 6 nations before Denmark, Ireland and UK joined in to 27 member states now.

Going back to the original reply to Bruce_Ma_Goose the UK (people) did not beg to join the EU in it's current form. I understand why we voted the way they did. I originally wanted to vote leave because I wanted reform of the EU. But then changed to remain to avoid uncertainty, which we now have. Doesn't mean I agree that with the EU as it is. And as things stand prefer just becoming part of EEA/EFTA as a pregamatic solution now. Let's us leave the EU but stay in the Single market/customs union etc.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What does Corbyn want the head to head for with May exactly?

I mean they both want Brexit to happen, just different reasons why, not really a proper Brexit debate unless we have a pro remainer on it IMO.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The point is that once that this is really the 2nd referendum on Europe that the UK electorate has had on what relationship with Europe. Yes UK parliament ratified each of the subsequent treaties which changed the EEC which was made up of what 6 nations before Denmark, Ireland and UK joined in to 27 member states now.

Going back to the original reply to Bruce_Ma_Goose the UK (people) did not beg to join the EU in it's current form. I understand why we voted the way they did. I originally wanted to vote leave because I wanted reform of the EU. But then changed to remain to avoid uncertainty, which we now have. Doesn't mean I agree that with the EU as it is. And as things stand prefer just becoming part of EEA/EFTA as a pregamatic solution now. Let's us leave the EU but stay in the Single market/customs union etc.

I think referenda are an extremely limited and overused political tool so I don't think we can agree on the first paragraph.

As for the second, that's a stance that really confuses me. You're essentially giving up any voice you have in the market and customs union while still being subject to certain European courts. I doubt very much that that is what most leave voters want, which brings me back to referenda being stupid, I can't say that enough!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think referenda are an extremely limited and overused political tool so I don't think we can agree on the first paragraph.

As for the second, that's a stance that really confuses me. You're essentially giving up any voice you have in the market and customs union while still being subject to certain European courts. I doubt very much that that is what most leave voters want, which brings me back to referenda being stupid, I can't say that enough!

Being pragmatic. The mandate was to leave the EU nothing more. Yes under EFTA we would still be subject to another independent European court and not ECJ.

As for why leave voters. Well that's the point they voted for a variety of reasons (be it sovereignty or immigration or both), but again the mandate given by the 2016 referendum was to leave the EU only. And yes I agree that is why such referendums are stupid because they ask a only single question to be answered but has now opened up a can of worms which no one knows how to solve. Hence why I think now EEA/EFTA is the most pragmatic solution now IMO.

These referendums should only really guide parliament because Parliament is supposed to be sovereign. They could just ignore the result of the referendum, but they won't or more accurately HOC won't because they are **** scared of getting thrown out on the next election.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Being pragmatic. The mandate was to leave the EU nothing more. Yes under EFTA we would still be subject to another independent European court and not ECJ.

As for why leave voters. Well that's the point they voted for a variety of reasons (be it sovereignty or immigration or both), but again the mandate given by the 2016 referendum was to leave the EU only. And yes I agree that is why such referendums are stupid because they ask a only single question to be answered but has now opened up a can of worms which no one knows how to solve. Hence why I think now EEA/EFTA is the most pragmatic solution now IMO.

These referendums should only really guide parliament because Parliament is supposed to be sovereign. They could just ignore the result of the referendum, but they won't or more accurately HOC won't because they are **** scared of getting thrown out on the next election.

A court independent of the ECJ but massively influenced by ECJ decisions, it's not going to go against the Cassis de Dijon case (outlawing import restrictions) or the like. The idea of being independent of the ECJ being a big motivator to leave amuses me too, if you want to remain in the EEA and EFTA but not be bound by ECJ rulings you're more or less asking for less employee rights than rights than the EU and for banks and certain financial institutions be less accountable for their actions. Whatever can be said about the EU it's undeniable that they are very good when it comes to protecting the individual with less bargaining power vs a bank or corporation.

Agree with everything else you've said.