A Political Thread

[DumbAmerican]

Smart people.
Thousands of our kids died in the desert for nothing. Just because America wanted to swing it's dick around after getting it's eye blackened by some Saudi terrorists.

Of course the US attempt to bring democracy and female education to the Pashtuns wasn't a well thought out plan, but I'd imagine the people running your country buy into that "humans longing for freedom as conceived by a dude from Ohio" thing just as much as Bush. The wisdom of the US strategy is irrelevant to Trump's issue with NATO. The US spent trillions of dollars defending these countries when they were helpless and risked nuclear war with the Soviet Union to help keep them free. The 9/11 attacks fell under the NATO treaty, and the attackers were in Afghanistan. The Germans weren't in a position to help because they don't fund a proper military. There was just a news story about how their army was recently training with broomsticks in place of guns because they lack basic supplies.

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[McTallshort]

Of course the US attempt to bring democracy and female education to the Pashtuns wasn't a well thought out plan, but I'd imagine the people running your country buy into that "humans longing for freedom as conceived by a dude from Ohio" thing just as much as Bush. The wisdom of the US strategy is irrelevant to Trump's issue with NATO. The US spent trillions of dollars defending these countries when they were helpless and risked nuclear war with the Soviet Union to help keep them free. The 9/11 attacks fell under the NATO treaty, and the attackers were in Afghanistan. The Germans weren't in a position to help because they don't fund a proper military. There was just a news story about how their army was recently training with broomsticks in place of guns because they lack basic supplies.

The US has spent trillions on defense because it chose to. The US military complex is very powerful and has a great deal of influence since the end of the second world war. America was always very isolationist before then and spent very little on defense but after making fortunes during that conflict the defense companies wanted the good times to keep rolling. Guns, Tanks rather shitty aircraft were all built to fight the great enemy of Communism! Countries like West Germany ending up buying lots of American equipment ( much of which was agreed with bribes ) so many NATO countries supported American companies which never seems to get mentioned by Trump.

The wars in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan and the many proxy wars and the destabilization of many nations ( South America in particular) were to serve on purpose: The building and supply of weapons for the American arms industry.

Now please dont think I am condemning this, I am British after all and we sell weapons to everyone! We have just been a bit smarter about and dont expect everyone to join in the wars we start just to keep the BAE pension funds topped up.

Dwight Eisenhower warned everyone about the Military Complex and its growing power but no one did much about it because American politics being what it is had most people in power in the pockets of companies like Lockheed and Colt, why do you think sensible gun control is so hard to pass in the US?

So please stop saying the US spent trillions on ours or Germanys defense when the real reason the US has such a ridiculously high defense budget is to support the guys on the top table who build weapons.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

This why the left gets such a bad ******* rep.

Someone just decided to point out England women's football team made a final 3 years ago on a post my wife made 3 days ago.....person isn't even interested in sport.

Can't stand it when people do things like that.

There was this article about home football might be coming home sooner with the womens world cup next year......... Yeh the two things are very different.

 

[ncurd]

Can't stand it when people do things like that.

There was this article about home football might be coming home sooner with the womens world cup next year......... Yeh the two things are very different.

Bloody annoyed the hell out of me it was all about 'virtue signalling' had sod all to do with wanting support women's sport. Plus it always people not into sport at all and those complaining about the football being the be all and end all to begin with. Just let people go about an enjoy their lives theres no need to attack people just because they didnt qualify their post that they were talking about mens football.

Person in question got extremely defensive when called them out for being an utter cock.

There is a point to be made and the article you describe is how to make it but as noted it's very rare these thing come out of a place of wanting to raise awareness and more a duck measuring contest to prove how woke you are.

 

[big ginger 8]

Trump telling May to sue the EU is so incredibly Trumpian (Trumpish? Trumpellian?) and American it gave me the best laugh I've had in a while.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Trump telling May to sue the EU is so incredibly Trumpian (Trumpish? Trumpellian?) and American it gave me the best laugh I've had in a while.

Staggering really... He tries to run countries like he runs his businesses, **** over the little guy and sue everyone. Also getting annoyed at Rees-Mogg getting so much media attention. He is like Farage, a rich guy born into wealth with **** all understanding of what it means to be a normal person trying to claim they represent the people of Britain whilst only looking out for themselves.

Seriously, it's so transparent and yet people keep falling for the Johnsons, Farages and Moggs of this world who just say what certain people want to hear and critical analysis goes out the window.

Also Farage really should have his name pronounced to rhyme with garage, it's only proper British.

 

[Which Tyler]

Also Farage really should have his name pronounced to rhyme with garage, it's only proper British.

Isn't that a bit disparaging?

 

[General Melchett]

Farage gets coverage because the media knows that his outspoken personality generates clicks and views. He's basically a gobsh1te pundit with zero intention of ever being in government and delivering on what he says.

 

[DumbAmerican]

The US has spent trillions on defense because it chose to. The US military complex is very powerful and has a great deal of influence since the end of the second world war. America was always very isolationist before then and spent very little on defense but after making fortunes during that conflict the defense companies wanted the good times to keep rolling. Guns, Tanks rather shitty aircraft were all built to fight the great enemy of Communism! Countries like West Germany ending up buying lots of American equipment ( much of which was agreed with bribes ) so many NATO countries supported American companies which never seems to get mentioned by Trump.

The wars in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan and the many proxy wars and the destabilization of many nations ( South America in particular) were to serve on purpose: The building and supply of weapons for the American arms industry.

Now please dont think I am condemning this, I am British after all and we sell weapons to everyone! We have just been a bit smarter about and dont expect everyone to join in the wars we start just to keep the BAE pension funds topped up.

Dwight Eisenhower warned everyone about the Military Complex and its growing power but no one did much about it because American politics being what it is had most people in power in the pockets of companies like Lockheed and Colt, why do you think sensible gun control is so hard to pass in the US?

So please stop saying the US spent trillions on ours or Germanys defense when the real reason the US has such a ridiculously high defense budget is to support the guys on the top table who build weapons.

I'm not disagreeing with most of that.
Yes, some US companies got rich. Yes, they employed workers who made good money. That doesn't change the fact that the US as a whole lost financially from defending Europe. That's the difference with Trump. He's looking out for the US as a whole, with a special eye on the working class. He's not going to sell us out for the temporary profit of some small group of companies or people.
You do make it seem like a bit too much of an evil plot or scheme by a couple US companies. The Soviet Union would most likely have moved on Western Europe if not for the US. The European leaders clearly wanted to reverse the quick US demobilization that occurred after WWII. Yes, the military industrial complex is real. Rent seeking builds up around anything the government is involved in, from the military to civil rights. I generally believe that ideology is as important a component as scheming and plotting by companies. I think that US leaders during the Cold War genuinely wanted to halt the advance of communism. I think Clinton, Obama, and the Bushes really did believe that all cultures want to live under "Western values" and that the US military had a role to play in allowing them to realize this.
What's interesting is that we finally have a President for the first time since the end of the Cold War who wants to rethink the American role in the world, and the same people who have been *****ing the hardest for decades about the "American Empire" are the people who are most opposed to him.
My nutt dream would be to break up Germany, and then leave Europe completely. Second best would be to get a better deal than one where we pay for Europe's defense while at the same time running a massive manufacturing trade deficit.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm not disagreeing with most of that.
Yes, some US companies got rich. Yes, they employed workers who made good money. That doesn't change the fact that the US as a whole lost financially from defending Europe. That's the difference with Trump. He's looking out for the US as a whole, with a special eye on the working class. He's not going to sell us out for the temporary profit of some small group of companies or people.
You do make it seem like a bit too much of an evil plot or scheme by a couple US companies. The Soviet Union would most likely have moved on Western Europe if not for the US. The European leaders clearly wanted to reverse the quick US demobilization that occurred after WWII. Yes, the military industrial complex is real. Rent seeking builds up around anything the government is involved in, from the military to civil rights. I generally believe that ideology is as important a component as scheming and plotting by companies. I think that US leaders during the Cold War genuinely wanted to halt the advance of communism. I think Clinton, Obama, and the Bushes really did believe that all cultures want to live under "Western values" and that the US military had a role to play in allowing them to realize this.
What's interesting is that we finally have a President for the first time since the end of the Cold War who wants to rethink the American role in the world, and the same people who have been *****ing the hardest for decades about the "American Empire" are the people who are most opposed to him.
My nutt dream would be to break up Germany, and then leave Europe completely. Second best would be to get a better deal than one where we pay for Europe's defense while at the same time running a massive manufacturing trade deficit.

Utter drivel.

During the early years of the post war when Europe was rebuilding then yeah, the USA footed the bill for out defence. In recent years though where the combine European military's are more than a match for the Russians the US forced stationed in Europe have had nothing to do with our defence and everything to do with your desire to be able to invade other parts of the planet. Say Trump decides to withdraw all force from Europe, then what? Won't affect us in the slightest but you will lose your European staging grounds, European medical hospitals, European airfields, European ports, you lose the whole lot. What happens when you decide to go romping around the middle east again? Well you now have to ask permission to start using all those facilities again. If you want to withdraw all your forces from Europe then feel free, it will have no impact on us. Every single war the USA has been involved in since WW2 has used European facilities to enable the military to function. You decide you don't want to be here? Fine, we decide we don't want such a backstabber using any of our military facilities. You want to invade the middle east, using Saudi Arabia again.

Also here is an interesting thing to note, the ONLY country that has used Article 6 to bring NATO allies into a conflict is *drum roll* the USA. So whilst you are getting on the bandwagon of whinging about how we are leeching off you, remember that since NATO was formed it's overwhelmingly been the USA dragging other countries into conflicts and it's only been the USA that have used the official NATO means to drag others it. When any other NATO members got into a conflict, the USA didn't lift a finger so stop selling this bullshit about how you are paying to protect us. The USA is acting as it always has done, in its own interests and nobody elses.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

- The Leader of The Free World, 2018

 

[McTallshort]

Utter drivel.

During the early years of the post war when Europe was rebuilding then yeah, the USA footed the bill for out defence. In recent years though where the combine European military's are more than a match for the Russians the US forced stationed in Europe have had nothing to do with our defence and everything to do with your desire to be able to invade other parts of the planet. Say Trump decides to withdraw all force from Europe, then what? Won't affect us in the slightest but you will lose your European staging grounds, European medical hospitals, European airfields, European ports, you lose the whole lot. What happens when you decide to go romping around the middle east again? Well you now have to ask permission to start using all those facilities again. If you want to withdraw all your forces from Europe then feel free, it will have no impact on us. Every single war the USA has been involved in since WW2 has used European facilities to enable the military to function. You decide you don't want to be here? Fine, we decide we don't want such a backstabber using any of our military facilities. You want to invade the middle east, using Saudi Arabia again.

Also here is an interesting thing to note, the ONLY country that has used Article 6 to bring NATO allies into a conflict is *drum roll* the USA. So whilst you are getting on the bandwagon of whinging about how we are leeching off you, remember that since NATO was formed it's overwhelmingly been the USA dragging other countries into conflicts and it's only been the USA that have used the official NATO means to drag others it. When any other NATO members got into a conflict, the USA didn't lift a finger so stop selling this bullshit about how you are paying to protect us. The USA is acting as it always has done, in its own interests and nobody elses.

And lets not forget the USA drove the arms race with the USSR not the other way round and the Cold war nearly went hot twice: Cuban missile crisis which was a direct response by the USSR to American ICBM's being stationed in Northern Turkey and in 1983 when the USA started deploying tactical Nuclear weapons in West Germany with the thought process of sacrificing Western Europe to knock out the Soviet Union.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Americans smh

 

[General Melchett]

Let's not forget the hypocrisy around accusing the Russians of illegally annexing Crimea and the Chinese setting up military bases on the disputed islands when the US pretty much did the same in Guantanamo, Guam and countless other places where they had no business purely to increase their global military might.

 

[big ginger 8]

Anyone know who influential any of these guys actually are? That there are people who believe this should happen is ridiculous enough but I'd hope they're on the periphery even though more may believe it just not be stupid enough to say it on tv.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Anyone know who influential any of these guys actually are? That there are people who believe this should happen is ridiculous enough but I'd hope they're on the periphery even though more may believe it just not be stupid enough to say it on tv.

Certainly in positions where they should know better.

 

[McTallshort]

Anyone know who influential any of these guys actually are? That there are people who believe this should happen is ridiculous enough but I'd hope they're on the periphery even though more may believe it just not be stupid enough to say it on tv.

I don't know what shocked me more: their belief that kids as young as 3 should have guns or they were that stupid to be fooled by borat

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Trump now sides with the Russians against the FBI...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44852812

Seriously, the guy is a Russian mole and he's not even hiding the fact.

 

[DumbAmerican]

Utter drivel.

During the early years of the post war when Europe was rebuilding then yeah, the USA footed the bill for out defence. In recent years though where the combine European military's are more than a match for the Russians the US forced stationed in Europe have had nothing to do with our defence and everything to do with your desire to be able to invade other parts of the planet. Say Trump decides to withdraw all force from Europe, then what? Won't affect us in the slightest but you will lose your European staging grounds, European medical hospitals, European airfields, European ports, you lose the whole lot. What happens when you decide to go romping around the middle east again? Well you now have to ask permission to start using all those facilities again. If you want to withdraw all your forces from Europe then feel free, it will have no impact on us. Every single war the USA has been involved in since WW2 has used European facilities to enable the military to function. You decide you don't want to be here? Fine, we decide we don't want such a backstabber using any of our military facilities. You want to invade the middle east, using Saudi Arabia again.

Also here is an interesting thing to note, the ONLY country that has used Article 6 to bring NATO allies into a conflict is *drum roll* the USA. So whilst you are getting on the bandwagon of whinging about how we are leeching off you, remember that since NATO was formed it's overwhelmingly been the USA dragging other countries into conflicts and it's only been the USA that have used the official NATO means to drag others it. When any other NATO members got into a conflict, the USA didn't lift a finger so stop selling this bullshit about how you are paying to protect us. The USA is acting as it always has done, in its own interests and nobody elses.

You are not understanding Trump and you are not comprehending what I am saying. You are responding to a narrative which is in your head, not any post I've made. You seem to be conflating Trump with preexisting political gripes that you have with the USA.
Yes, the USA establishment since after WWII had paid for Europe's defense and allowed them favorable trade terms. In return the USA establishment was able to use European power as a supplement to our own power in the game of global politics. That made sense in the Cold War, and the American people were willing to pay this price to contain communism. The world order changed when the Iron Curtain fell, but the USA establishment now wanted to keep playing their games. I'm sure it's fun to try and run the world, and then there's all the special interests / bureaucracy / military industrial complex / etc that have a stake in continuing to get their piece of the pie. After 25 years and failure after failure of USA foreign policy the USA elected Trump. He ran on a campaign of eliminating the Deep State, draining the swamp and overturning US foreign policy. He's not interested in buying off Europe in exchange for Europe agreeing to be junior partners. He either wants a fair alliance. He's not willing to use the wealth created by the American people to subsidize European defense or give you trade deals that are unfair to the American worker, and I think US voters agree with that. A fair alliance involves actual German / Italian / French troops fighting along side as equal partners of the US / UK / Canada in a situation like Afghanistan where the NATO treaty was invoked after an attack on the US homeland. It involves even financial contributions. If they don't want to do that, then Trump walks away. He doesn't care about using Europe as a staging ground or getting European votes at the UN, because he's not interested in the American Empire or running the world.