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So in order to return to normality we have to listen to the lunatics? No it's the job of the ultra right wing to listen to everyone else.

Okay, how are you going to enforce this? I've met with some right disgusting people in my time (racists and homophobes) and forcing them to listen does nothing. It only gets their backs up and makes them worse. You need to encourage civilised discord between the two parties in order to get anywhere and browbeating simply does not work.

And what has the left done that is so wrong to them? Told them that being racist isn't right and that immigrants aren't all evil?

The former goes without saying - it is wrong but you also have people being labelled as racists by the crazies on the left. As I said before, they hurt black people and ethnic people as well by turning the word racist into a playground insult.

You will find that almost all political groups divide and conquer and use issues to split people. Never mind about 'racism and homophobia is bad hmmmkay' how about how are we going to solve these issues once and for all? I remember reading somewhere that a Doctor was considering treating racism and homophobia as mental health disorders. Would that be worth looking at, if trials show it could work and if racists and homophobes have some deep down mental trauma acerbating their behaviour. I'm not a doctor, just simply asking if this is something we should be looking at.

Of course, not all immigrants are evil - but we do need to call out those that are and unfortunately there are too many bad ones who spoil it for the rest. My Muslim neighbour is one of the nicest people I've had the pleasure of meeting, yet even she is angered by the Government being too PC with terrorists (of all races and colours). She wants a peaceful life, as do we all.

The Democrats will have to instigate changes because the left is seen as morally virtuous and the right is seen as evil. If you're a moral and virtuous person, you will know that you will have to be the one who says 'well okay, we have to work towards peace because the current way of doing things is wrong.' Besides, it will make them look good and boost their image with the Republicans, some of whom may say 'you know what, stuff Trump these guys are finally changing and finally listening to us.' Trump won't change, so maybe by the Democrats taking up the reigns on this they can not only change perceived negative opinions of them amongst Republicans they can also bring Trump down to size and even take control of the White House.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Read the post I quoted, You did.
Rage said trump is a liar, you said why should he try to appeal to everyone.

There's a difference between trying to appeal to everyone and not being a proven, consistent and unapologetic liar.
Click to expand...

That's only how you are reading it or choosing it to read it.

My stance is and always will be thus:

Calling Donald Trump or anybody else out as bad is fine, but you have to be constant in your criticisms and at least understand why these people are seen as almost heroic to their supporters.

Do I like Trump - no. Do I like Clinton/Sanders - double no. These people are the problem, rather than the solution as they are the dividers and conquerors. Trump ran on his MAGA beliefs, Clinton ran on Progressive Beliefs and Sanders appealed to the Social Justice campaigners (as loopy as the far right, but they believe Unicorns are real so they can't be all bad...) Had they ran on making the USA economy better and had solid plans for growth then maybe these would have been worth listening to. As it was, all we got was divided and divisive - 'I'm for you guys but not for these guys' from ALL of them.

Nobody can deny that a lot of people in the USA were left disenfranchised by the way the country had been run previously. However, rather than listening to the grievances of people, they were ignored and abused, mocked and belittled. If you feel that your Government doesn't support you, you vote against them and that's what happened in 2016 in the USA.

With Brexit, it was the same thing - a tide of Euro-scepticism was threatening to undermine David Cameron's leadership of the country, and so rather than risk UKIP getting any stronger he offered the British people a referendum.

The result was that 52% of us said we want out. The referendum then exposed a lot of the hostility and ill feeling towards each other - Remainers are anti-British and out of touch with reality, Leavers are racist country bumpkins etc. The whole thing could have been avoided had David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg all agreed between them to do more for those people in Clacton, Boston etc. who felt isolated and powerless. That is where I believe a lot of the anger in people (which sometimes comes out as racism and homophobia) stems from.

The real blame lies with those trying to split up people and their society. We could do so much more together if only we realise that it takes two.

Trump's a liar eh? Show me a politician who doesn't lie and I'll sell you an invisible bridge.
 
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GarethGriffiths said:
So in order to return to normality we have to listen to the lunatics? No it's the job of the ultra right wing to listen to everyone else.

Okay, how are you going to enforce this? I've met with some right disgusting people in my time (racists and homophobes) and forcing them to listen does nothing. It only gets their backs up and makes them worse. You need to encourage civilised discord between the two parties in order to get anywhere and browbeating simply does not work.

And what has the left done that is so wrong to them? Told them that being racist isn't right and that immigrants aren't all evil?

The former goes without saying - it is wrong but you also have people being labelled as racists by the crazies on the left. As I said before, they hurt black people and ethnic people as well by turning the word racist into a playground insult.

You will find that almost all political groups divide and conquer and use issues to split people. Never mind about 'racism and homophobia is bad hmmmkay' how about how are we going to solve these issues once and for all? I remember reading somewhere that a Doctor was considering treating racism and homophobia as mental health disorders. Would that be worth looking at, if trials show it could work and if racists and homophobes have some deep down mental trauma acerbating their behaviour. I'm not a doctor, just simply asking if this is something we should be looking at.

Of course, not all immigrants are evil - but we do need to call out those that are and unfortunately there are too many bad ones who spoil it for the rest. My Muslim neighbour is one of the nicest people I've had the pleasure of meeting, yet even she is angered by the Government being too PC with terrorists (of all races and colours). She wants a peaceful life, as do we all.

The Democrats will have to instigate changes because the left is seen as morally virtuous and the right is seen as evil. If you're a moral and virtuous person, you will know that you will have to be the one who says 'well okay, we have to work towards peace because the current way of doing things is wrong.' Besides, it will make them look good and boost their image with the Republicans, some of whom may say 'you know what, stuff Trump these guys are finally changing and finally listening to us.' Trump won't change, so maybe by the Democrats taking up the reigns on this they can not only change perceived negative opinions of them amongst Republicans they can also bring Trump down to size and even take control of the White House.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of "enforcing", it's a case of them getting their collective heads out of their arses and seeing what they are doing. I'm not saying the left is blameless but to make out that the blame is in any way equal and that on top of that it is the left that should change and start listening is completely ignoring the point that this problem is caused by the right not listening. If the left listen, the right wing extremists will carry on exactly as they are. I'm all in favour of dialogue but the right wing also made a point of not having any dialogue, just blind obstruction. The one common point among all ex-nazis etc is they NEVER change because someone reasoned with them, they only change when they themselves decide to stop being an arse and approach the matter with civility. Being a racist and not being open to civil discourse tend to go hand in hand as the basis for it is shaky. They feel their racist beliefs being undermined whenever they have to justify it so they choose not to. Would you say it was for a non-racist to listen to a racist even if all he is doing is spewing complete nonsense and refusing to listen to the rebuttals?

Yeah the left do have a habit of throwing around the word racist, but then far right extremists have a habit of actually being racist so it kinda balances out. If someone's sole reason for not allowing immigrants boils down to "they are different", that is essentially racist (or culturalist depending on the point being made). Racism is not a mental disease, if anything it is simply an attempt to rationalise an animalistic instinct. In nature we would trust those of the group and distrust those outside the group, humans show this behaviour in all manner of things. The point is that we also have the intellect that means we are capable of including vastly more in the group and reducing our negative attitudes to those outside it. Those who are racist for the most part are not exercising this and so their group is defined in much narrower terms and those who fall outside their narrower group are treated with greater hostility. This is not to say all racists are also stupid, many otherwise very intelligent people are also racist, it is just that in that aspect of their life their behaviour is controlled more by a primal instinct that a reasoned approach.

The Democrats can't bring about the changes because that creates the situation you said was the problem, of the left taking a haughty high ground and trying to enforce morals on people who don't want them. The sort of people who still support Trump are the ones who think the Confederates had the right idea, think building a wall is actually sensible, think immigrants are terrible (literally all of them, including Europeans and Canadians for the most extreme) and have this warped view of American purity being spoiled by those who are not like them. They aren't interested in seeing others hold the moral high ground because in their eyes those moral actions are actually the actions of traitors. They see tolerance as weakness, diversity as genocide of the white race, immigration as cultural dilution etc. All the things that you think can be held up as moral positions are things they despise. How exactly do you listen to someone telling you black people are little better than apes? What do you respond? No use pointing out all the successful black people because they just see a successful ape or someone who got there through means other than merit.

No it's for the right wing nutters to change because nobody else can change them. They are the ones dragging America down it's current path, not the left and it is for them to fix it. Most right wingers aren't racists and aren't nazis so they had better wake up soon and realise that those are the people who are now leading them.
 
Would you say it was for a non-racist to listen to a racist even if all he is doing is spewing complete nonsense and refusing to listen to the rebuttals?

I would certainly make every effort to listen and try and understand why he/she thinks in that way. I believe in meeting people half-way, though some people you will sadly never change.

How exactly do you listen to someone telling you black people are little better than apes?

Well, I am half-cast and I have had monkey noises and comments like this made about me. It's obviously not a good thing, but my attitude has always been to prove these idiots wrong. By that, I mean working hard to become the best I can be leaving them far behind. It's a far sweeter victory when you have made something of your life and the half-wit behind the 'black people are little better than apes' is still living at home with Mum in his 40s.

People say bad stuff, it's up to you to prove them wrong. If somebody genuinely does not like a black person, I won't automatically hate on him/her. I know of a lady who is so scared of black men (she was gang raped by a black gang) that she will cross the street or run away if she sees one. Yet some might say 'that woman is a racist, jail her birch her unclean unclean!' when in my view she's not racist, she just needs help and support and a lot of love too.

Black people, like white people, aren't always saints. Treat everybody with a modicum of respect, but do not fawn.
 
Most right wingers aren't racists and aren't nazis so they had better wake up soon and realise that those are the people who are now leading them.

Yes, and whilst this is true the left has to acknowledge that whilst most of them aren't extremists who want freedom of speech banned, jail sentences for mis-gendering people or death to whites etc. that these are the people who are seen as leading the Left by some people on the Right.

I'm not interested in which is more wrong, I am more interesting in making sure there is no wrong at all. You can't say there is a splint in my eye, for instance, when you also have a splint or worse in yours. So yes, whilst I dislike racists and nazis and homophobes on the Right I also dislike the bullies and trouble-makers on the Left. Maybe the Left are more succinct about their hatred and bigotry than the Right?

BOTH sides have to detox themselves of the idiots or there is no hope.
 
You have no problem with a person choosing the sex of their child?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/ellenp...arents-to-choose-their-babys-gender-is-wrong/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mo...should-be-able-to-choose-their-babys-sex.html

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/r...g/news-story/0c12ebc24c4fe8d31c9be53820b3e2fe

Babies are not commodities. It is not like buying a car, where you can decide its colour or which features I'd like or whether you want Hybrid or Diesel.

Babies are life-forms and humans, thus they should be treated as such.
 
I honestly couldn't give a flying **** about it and its not my place to judge. When they start paying for intellectually superior babies call me before then its just not place to judge.
 
GarethGriffiths said:
You have no problem with a person choosing the sex of their child?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/ellenp...arents-to-choose-their-babys-gender-is-wrong/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mo...should-be-able-to-choose-their-babys-sex.html

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/r...g/news-story/0c12ebc24c4fe8d31c9be53820b3e2fe

Babies are not commodities. It is not like buying a car, where you can decide its colour or which features I'd like or whether you want Hybrid or Diesel.

Babies are life-forms and humans, thus they should be treated as such.
Click to expand...

Yeah but its not like you are making it change, you simply pick the sex before conception. There are lots of practical reasons for doing this such as hereditary conditions that transfer only to certain sexes and if you have 3 boys why not get a girl?

Personally my 3 were all chosen the old fashioned way....Of course the missus followed a certain diet when she wanted a girl.
 
Tallshort said:
Yeah but its not like you are making it change, you simply pick the sex before conception. There are lots of practical reasons for doing this such as hereditary conditions that transfer only to certain sexes and if you have 3 boys why not get a girl?

Personally my 3 were all chosen the old fashioned way....Of course the missus followed a certain diet when she wanted a girl.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, maybe. If you absolutely must have a boy/girl at all costs I can see why some people might choose this way.

Personally I don't believe in interfering with nature - it always has a way of coming back to bite you on the 'arris.
 
ncurd said:
I honestly couldn't give a flying **** about it and its not my place to judge. When they start paying for intellectually superior babies call me before then its just not place to judge.
Click to expand...

You cared about it that little that you replied.

Chomp!

(That's another 20p for the swear jar by the way)
 
GarethGriffiths said:
Hmmm, maybe. If you absolutely must have a boy/girl at all costs I can see why some people might choose this way.

Personally I don't believe in interfering with nature - it always has a way of coming back to bite you on the 'arris.
Click to expand...

we interfere with nature all the time: Cure Cancer or let nature take its course? Premature babies- put them in an incubator or let nature take its course?
 
I'll start worrying about whether science has gone too far when dinosaurs start eating archaeologists on an island in the Pacific
 
Wait don't you have to fill in the form so the stork knows what type of baby you want them to bring anyway?
 
Tallshort said:
You can do it on line nowadays
Click to expand...

I guess that's why it's called 'downloading' then.

By the same token, Tallshort, by interfering we can decide if a baby has Down's Syndrome lives or dies. Look at Iceland (no, not the Food Store) where Down's Syndrome children have almost been eradicated: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...n-first-country-world-screening-a7895996.html

Somehow I guess that they don't matter?

Some people are concerned with 'playing God' as being a slippery slope. Even in The Guardian (which is very pro-science) there was an article about screening sperm for dyslexia and asking where do people draw the line with cutting out illnesses or disorders:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/30/screening-sperm-donors-dyslexia-clinic

It may be old fashioned, but I choose to accept people (especially the very young) just the way they are in spite of their imperfections and disabilities.
 
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