A Political Thread

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I keep seeing this sort of straw man which implies that people who think western foreign policy has been damaging also believe that removing all troops, involvement etc straight away would magically make things better. I can't imagine many people thinking that. It's more about long term strategies.

On another point which I'm not sure whether it's been mentioned but for me is super important. The people carrying out these actually bombings are almost without exception young men. This means they grew up, mostly in the West, during times of repeated foreign military interventions. That makes them extremely vulnerable to the narrative that extremist groups want to give, which is that throughout all history, Arab nations have been defending their homeland against foreign crusaders. It doesn't matter that the narrative isn't the whole truth, it will resound with Muslims growing up in western societies they perceive as attacking their culture. That's just another facet of the problem which is the propaganda value of western attacks, and another way in which aggressive foreign policies can be extremely dangerous, even if you think that military intervention is justified.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Really don't know which way to vote this time.

I can't vote Labour under Corbyn, I just can't. Even my mother who's life long Labour thinks he's a fool and voted Green as a protest.

Been a bad campaign for May. Parroting strong and stable, sidestepping the debate leaving Rudd, who'd lost her father a couple of days previously, to take her place, and some of her contemptuous dealings with the police coming back to bite her on the ar*e. And of course calling the election in the first place when she said she wouldn't, although show me a politician in her shoes who'd have done differently. The classic "smug Tory" jibes have some resonance this time. They will win, but not with the majority they were expecting.

Like mother like son, we could be in protest vote territory.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Really don't know which way to vote this time.

I can't vote Labour under Corbyn, I just can't. Even my mother who's life long Labour thinks he's a fool and voted Green as a protest.

Been a bad campaign for May. Parroting strong and stable, sidestepping the debate leaving Rudd, who'd lost her father a couple of days previously, to take her place, and some of her contemptuous dealings with the police coming back to bite her on the ar*e. And of course calling the election in the first place when she said she wouldn't, although show me a politician in her shoes who'd have done differently. The classic "smug Tory" jibes have some resonance this time. They will win, but not with the majority they were expecting.

And I haven't got a clue about who could best handle the terrorist threat.

Like mother like son, we could be in protest vote territory.

 

[McTallshort]

I keep seeing this sort of straw man which implies that people who think western foreign policy has been damaging also believe that removing all troops, involvement etc straight away would magically make things better. I can't imagine many people thinking that. It's more about long term strategies.

On another point which I'm not sure whether it's been mentioned but for me is super important. The people carrying out these actually bombings are almost without exception young men. This means they grew up, mostly in the West, during times of repeated foreign military interventions. That makes them extremely vulnerable to the narrative that extremist groups want to give, which is that throughout all history, Arab nations have been defending their homeland against foreign crusaders. It doesn't matter that the narrative isn't the whole truth, it will resound with Muslims growing up in western societies they perceive as attacking their culture. That's just another facet of the problem which is the propaganda value of western attacks, and another way in which aggressive foreign policies can be extremely dangerous, even if you think that military intervention is justified.

So you dont think Islam becoming more Conservative has anything to do with it?

 

[Gavin]

Really don't know which way to vote this time.

I can't vote Labour under Corbyn, I just can't. Even my mother who's life long Labour thinks he's a fool and voted Green as a protest.

Been a bad campaign for May. Parroting strong and stable, sidestepping the debate leaving Rudd, who'd lost her father a couple of days previously, to take her place, and some of her contemptuous dealings with the police coming back to bite her on the ar*e. And of course calling the election in the first place when she said she wouldn't, although show me a politician in her shoes who'd have done differently. The classic "smug Tory" jibes have some resonance this time. They will win, but not with the majority they were expecting.

And I haven't got a clue about who could best handle the terrorist threat.

Like mother like son, we could be in protest vote territory.

Why exactly would you not vote Labour? What policies in their manifesto do you believe would not benefit the UK?

It does really baffle me how people cannot go 'that' Labour manifesto really provides hope for the majority of the population of the UK, compared to the Conservative on'.

So many people complain about bankers and the economic crash. Large corporations not paying their tax. The rich getting richer. People not being able to get jobs due to wages being undercut by companies.

Funnily enough this Labour party wants to sort all these issues out...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Really don't know which way to vote this time.

I can't vote Labour under Corbyn, I just can't. Even my mother who's life long Labour thinks he's a fool and voted Green as a protest.

Been a bad campaign for May. Parroting strong and stable, sidestepping the debate leaving Rudd, who'd lost her father a couple of days previously, to take her place, and some of her contemptuous dealings with the police coming back to bite her on the ar*e. And of course calling the election in the first place when she said she wouldn't, although show me a politician in her shoes who'd have done differently. The classic "smug Tory" jibes have some resonance this time. They will win, but not with the majority they were expecting.

And I haven't got a clue about who could best handle the terrorist threat.

Like mother like son, we could be in protest vote territory.

There really should be a "none of the above" box ala in the movie Brewsters' Millions. Just to let voters who really don't like the options available to tell the establishment that none of them deserve your vote.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isnt that what spoiling your ballot is for?
Because they read out the number if spoiled ballots when announcing results so it's a protest showing X amount of people want to vote but not for any of the candidates available.

 

[McTallshort]

Why exactly would you not vote Labour? What policies in their manifesto do you believe would not benefit the UK?

It does really baffle me how people cannot go 'that' Labour manifesto really provides hope for the majority of the population of the UK, compared to the Conservative on'.

So many people complain about bankers and the economic crash. Large corporations not paying their tax. The rich getting richer. People not being able to get jobs due to wages being undercut by companies.

Funnily enough this Labour party wants to sort all these issues out...

Which party was in Power during the economic crash?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Isnt that what spoiling your ballot is for?
Because they read out the number if spoiled ballots when announcing results so it's a protest showing X amount of people want to vote but not for any of the candidates available.

Yes, you could just write it on there, but spoiled ballot papers also reflect - those who try and vote for more than one candidate and those who think they are being funny and start drawing pictures on the ballot paper/write down their own candidate who isn't even electable. If there was a specific box to mark "none of the above" I think this could be counted separately i.e. to show none of the options are viable for this particular voter.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...AUIBigB&biw=1600&bih=785#imgrc=BWZC4wfB8kKzBM:

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

So you dont think Islam becoming more Conservative has anything to do with it?

I don't know why you bother commenting on this thread to be honest since you barely read what other people write, and just come up with some half-related point phrased as a question in response. I haven't indicated that growing conservativism in Islam isn't an issue, indeed I haven't commented on this at all in this specific point. I've already said earlier in this thread that Islam has problems needing addressing but that I don't believe this is the whole problem. You're not engaging in proper conversation, you're just jumping in and out and derailing the points people are trying to make.

 

[Gavin]

Which party was in Power during the economic crash?

God I really do hate this arguement. The Labour party of Blair and Brown is nothing compared to the Labour party which is currently in the UK.

The Labour party back then was effectively red / champagne Tories.

If you are really suggesting that there is no difference to the last Labour government and the current party who want to increase taxes on the richest and increase corporation tax, then there is no hope for you.

 

[McTallshort]

I don't know why you bother commenting on this thread to be honest since you barely read what other people write, and just come up with some half-related point phrased as a question in response. I haven't indicated that growing conservativism in Islam isn't an issue, indeed I haven't commented on this at all in this specific point. I've already said earlier in this thread that Islam has problems needing addressing but that I don't believe this is the whole problem. You're not engaging in proper conversation, you're just jumping in and out and derailing the points people are trying to make.

I am asking a question which I am allowed to do. I read what you said then asked a question. What the **** is your problem?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

God I really do hate this arguement. The Labour party of Blair and Brown is nothing compared to the Labour party which is currently in the UK.

The Labour party back then was effectively red / champagne Tories.

Yeah, and this is quite apart from the fact that labour clearly didn't cause the global economic crisis.

By the way guys, you know that deregulation which resulted in the financial sectors freedom to take whatever risks they wanted? Know where that began? That's Thatcher and Reagan right there. It's the conservative economic philosophy in a nutshell.

 

[ncurd]

Or you could vote Lib Dem who's plans have the backing of the IFS (who said both Labour and Conservative plans were didgy as hell for paying for it). Got the endorsement of The Economist as well.

The IFS also say our plans will be better for the bottom 60% of the country than Labour (who's plans help middle incomes between 60-90 more than us) or Conservative whos plans unsurpsingly only beat us for top 10%.

You get happy medium between not being there only for rich and picking on whichever demographic the Daily Mail despises this week. Sharing the burden around like Labour but having sound economics behind the spending plans and not given so much power to unions that they can stop the entire country again to stroke their own ego of those at the top of those organisations.



But lets not vote for party talking common sense on middle and jump to extreme's on both sides instead.

 

[ncurd]

Yes, you could just write it on there, but spoiled ballot papers also reflect - those who try and vote for more than one candidate and those who think they are being funny and start drawing pictures on the ballot paper/write down their own candidate who isn't even electable. If there was a specific box to mark "none of the above" I think this could be counted separately i.e. to show none of the options are viable for this particular voter.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...AUIBigB&biw=1600&bih=785#imgrc=BWZC4wfB8kKzBM:

Spoiled ballot papers are seen more as a sign of protest than someone being too stupid to vote. Most are in protest and deliberately spoiled.

 

[Which Tyler]

Isnt that what spoiling your ballot is for?
Because they read out the number if spoiled ballots when announcing results so it's a protest showing X amount of people want to vote but not for any of the candidates available.

I've always voted "none of the above" in general elections personally.

Spoiled ballot papers are seen more as a sign of protest than someone being too stupid to vote. Most are in protest and deliberately spoiled.

Agreed; those who bother to turn up in order to draw a cock on the balot paper are obviously still protesting.
Those who vote for each candidate are obviously protesting.
Those who rank their votes in order of preference are obviously protesting.
Those who genuinely believe that they can vote for more than 1 candidate are idiots who's vote wouldn't count in virtually any form of election; and are about the only ones that shouldn't be considered a protest vote.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Thanks. I'll have a look at the lesser parties and see if I like anything there. That's as much of a protest and feels slightly more positive than spoiling.

Gavin "Why exactly would I not vote Labour"? A variety of reasons, including union influence and questions over how well costed their proposals are. But primarily I have seen precisely nothing to persuade me that their senior team has anything like the gravitas, credibility and ability to run the country......and if you cast your mind back a few months, nor do a lot of Labour MPs. Watching Corbyn and Abbott bumble their way through the campaign has been embarrassing.......and whether we like it or not for huge swathes of the electorate will vote on shallow perceptions of the leadership.

Assuming May gets back in, I suspect the post election Labour blood letting will be spectacular.

 

[ncurd]

Agreed; those who bother to turn up in order to draw a cock on the balot paper are obviously still protesting.

Even ranking is a form of protest if you think something like AV should be used instead.

I wrote an entire diatribe in last years police commissioner elections about how I didn't think it should be elected position. Some poor counter had to read it but in addition they did bemoan how many spoiled ballots there were.

Just be careful with spoiling any spoiled ballots are rechecked to see if a clear preference is given. For example if you circle just one name it will likely be counted as that person or a tick instead of an X in a box.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's crazy how successful the right wing media assassination of Corbyn has been.

Like a couple of minutes ago I saw a comment on Facebook by some old woman, which had several hundred likes, saying that corbyn was a traitor and wanted to disband the military and open the borders.
It's all nonsense, but so many idiots just eat it up.

 

[ncurd]

Aye we (the Lib Dems) are trying very hard to explain to Labour voters that they will not stop Brexit despite what the papers say. Its frutratingly annoying but also groups like Momentum and online 'news' outlets like The Canary deliberately throw out lies and disinformation about their position. The Tories also like in the same ways.

Labour are committed to spending 2% of GDP on defence spending (as are all parties with major party status). Its pretty much a non-arguement he doesn't like Trident and think its a waste of money (and I'd agree) but that doesn't mean he's going to use it to fund the NHS instead.




It feels like I spend half my life currently clarifying what is actually in parties manifestos.