A Political Thread

[ncurd]

I've said it before I'll say againit the EU referendum was a gamble Cameron never thought he would have to take. All polls pointed towards a 2nd hung parliament and a likely coalition with the Lib Dems nobody really expected and utter collapse in their support. In all likelihood the Lib Dems would of vetoed any referendum and the Tories would of not go enough support from other parties.

Also I think you're extremely naive if you think the right wing presses immigration stance (and flat out lies in some places) wasn't the key factor in this election. I think you need to talk to some run of the mill Brexit supporters.

 

[ncurd]

I've said it before I'll say againit the EU referendum was a gamble Cameron never thought he would have to take. All polls pointed towards a 2nd hung parliament and a likely coalition with the Lib Dems nobody really expected and utter collapse in their support. In all likelihood the Lib Dems would of vetoed any referendum and the Tories would of not go enough support from other parties.

Also I think you're extremely naive if you think the right wing presses immigration stance (and flat out lies in some places) wasn't the key factor in this election. I think you need to talk to some run of the mill Brexit supporters.

 

[Unol Daleithiau]

Why are so many of you opposed to the fact that the EU referendum happened? Because your side lost? The people have spoken, and you need to respect that decision. Our country will be much better off down the road.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why will it?

 

[Unol Daleithiau]

Why will it?

1) We will finally be able to control our borders again.
2) We will be able to make our own laws, set our own taxes and negotiate our own trade deals.
3) When Britain joined in 1973, the states that now make up the EU accounted for 36 per cent of the world economy. Last year, it was 17 per cent. The EU has just been out performed.

Etc. Etc.

Britain is one of only two of 28 member states that sell more to the rest of the world than to the EU. We have always been especially badly penalised by the EU's Common External Tariff. Unlike Switzerland, which enjoys free trade with the EU at the same time as striking agreements with China and other growing economies, we must contract out our trade policy to a European commissioner — at present, as it happens, a former sociology lecturer from Sweden.

We have (because the EU has) no trade agreements with China, India or most other Commonwealth countries. EU–Australia talks are being held up by a dispute over Italian tomatoes. Even the EU-Canada deal, which everyone thought was agreed, now risks being vetoed by Romania because of an unrelated row about visas for Romanians wishing to enter Canada. It's a costly failure. In 2006, the EU was taking 55 per cent of our exports; last year, it was down to 45 per cent. What will it be in 2030 — or 2050?

What makes the EU different from every other international association is that it legislates for its members. This is the big thing that the opposition does not recognise.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

"The people have spoken" you mean a tiny majority of those who voted have spoken? That is very different to the people as a whole have spoken and is certainly different to claiming the entire country should now go for the hardest Brexit it can on the basis of a 2% swing.

1) We already control our borders to a large degree. Whilst the EU may have prevented border control with other EU members, it did nothing to prevent them with countries outside the EU. Did this stop us taking people in? Nope. Even the borders we could control we still allowed many immigrants in. Why do you think this will change for the EU?

2) We already make our own laws, many EU laws we adopted were done with our support (until very recently there had to be unanimous approval for a law to pass), we already have plenty of freedom setting our own taxes and the UK is a less attractive trading bloc than the EU. Here's the thing, the larger your market is, the more bargaining power you have over the other party. The UK will have less economic clout than the EU. Already the US has said they are going to try to exploit the UK with one of Trump's key advisers saying the UK will be desperate for any trade so the USA should immediately jump in and set up a completely unfavourable trade deal for the UK. May and her ilk will prance around like it is a great success when in reality it will be worse than what we originally had. You don't think this trend is going to repeat elsewhere with other countries seeing a UK desperate for trade deals ASAP?

3) When Britain joined in 1973, Britain also contributed to a larger share of the world economy than it does now. It's basic economics, it is much much easier to expand as china has done than to keep finding new growth as an already developed nation, or do you somehow think we are supposed to compete with the level of growth China has going from a rural economy to an industrial and service one?

We sell more to the EU than the rest of the world... You know Switzerland has over 100 bilateral agreements hammered out over decades in its relations with the EU? It is also obliged to adopt certain EU rules whilst having no say in them in order to have the access it does? Britain will be no different.

Everyone is aware the EU legislates, if anything the ignorance is on the Brexit side thinking the EU is this monolithic entity riding roughshod over the wishes of the poor nations that make it up, when your examples highlight exactly why this is complete crap. Single nations can derail massive processes because the individual nations have that much power in the EU, yet you turn around and make out somehow we are being dictated to by Brussels. How the hell do you combine those contradictory views together? This also ignores that the EU Parliament is elected by the people, the EU Council is made up of the elected representatives of each nation, the EU Commission has a member from each state and until very recently no law could pass without unanimous consent from all countries. All EU laws must also be ratified by national Parliaments. But nope, so much easier to claim we are being dictated to by unelected Brussels bureaucrats. How about we just send the Brexit bill started by a PM nobody chose to the 2nd house that is entirely unelected to be signed off by the Queen and show the world how we will not tolerate unelected people in governments!

 

[ncurd]

I thought I was going to have wade in on this then rangeracher said everything I would in greater detail.

Most arguments for Bexit crumble even the simplest of scrutiny (some don't but don't hold much weight for me with the economic suicide we are about to commit).

Plus your 'side' lost in 1973 didn't stop people arguing for 44 years that it was the wrong decision. I don't see why 48% of voters should suddenly be silenced now. Especially as noted the hardest of Brexits was clearly not supported by the majority of voters. Hell the entire Leave campaign was telling us it didn't have to be that way! Only now Leave voters are telling us the Remain campaign told us it would be this way......yes and we told you it would be really bad idea your side were promising the rainbows that have yet to appear.

 

[McTallshort]

Need to get over it folks we are leaving

 

[ncurd]

Need to get over it folks we are leaving

God don't I know it TBH whilst I have pro-EU stance I'm far more concerned with Tories on everything else as well as Brexit. In addition May's speech after dissolving parliament is not what you say to someone when your about to enter massive trade negotiations with that your countries economy depends on going well.

This is just us reserving the right to say its still a terrible decision to leave to EU.

 

[amz]

Vive la France!

 

[McTallshort]

God don't I know it TBH whilst I have pro-EU stance I'm far more concerned with Tories on everything else as well as Brexit. In addition May's speech after dissolving parliament is not what you say to someone when your about to enter massive trade negotiations with that your countries economy depends on going well.

This is just us reserving the right to say its still a terrible decision to leave to EU.

Don't forget the EU exports more to us than we do to them. It's in as much their interest to get a deal as it is ours. The EU after all is a Trading block. If they had kept it as a trading block instead of trying to get closer political union the referendum would not have happened

 

[ncurd]

Don't forget the EU exports more to us than we do to them. It's in as much their interest to get a deal as it is ours. The EU after all is a Trading block. If they had kept it as a trading block instead of trying to get closer political union the referendum would not have happened

Let's not retread arguments from a year ago. My point is simply even if they do export more to us than we do to them it's hardly a good idea to antagonise them!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Need to get over it folks we are leaving

Always hate when people wheel this out.
Everyone knows it's happening, doesn't mean we have to be happy about it.
If I broke my ankle I wouldn't just think "**** it, I need to get over it" and start running around on it as usual.

 

[McTallshort]

Always hate when people wheel this out.
Everyone knows it's happening, doesn't mean we have to be happy about it.
If I broke my ankle I wouldn't just think "**** it, I need to get over it" and start running around on it as usual.

No but you would do your best to get it fixed and deal it. No sit on the end of your bed wining about how it happened

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Who's whining?
People are allowed to talk about whatever they want, if it's about the issues with Brexit then so be it.
If you can't handle hearing criticism of brexit/the tories then maybe you should...what was it....get over it?

It's not like people are just crying about it, it's informed discussion, answering questions etc.

 

[McTallshort]

I was replying to you example olly. No need for me to find a "safe space" never minded arguing the toss on here and I'm no snow flake.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I was replying to you example olly. No need for me to find a "safe space" never minded arguing the toss on here and I'm no snow flake.

You do realise that discussion and criticism continuing after a vote is a fundamental part of the democratic process right? Yeah we voted to leave, we have not yet sorted out how we are going to leave and many leavers seem to hold this draconion view that if you were on the "losing" side, your opinion is invalid if it isn't the hardest of hard Brexit. Bit of news, it's my country that is being dragged out against my wishes too and I damn well want a say in it. I may be discussing it on a rugby forum where it won't do anything but large chunks of the recent "fake news" is spread by people online etc and not through normal sources, although I do still intend to write to my MP when we actually have a clue about what the hell the government plan to do besides antagonising everyone.

Brexiters love to say a 2nd vote was fair because the conditions changed from what we voted for, well I say that now. We have gone from leavers overwhelmingly promoting a soft Brexit to full on hard Brexit with extra antagonism and jingoism thrown in. I didn't vote for that and I'm sure many leavers also didn't vote for the line the government have decided to follow. This process more than any other should be open to the public with plenty of debate but we are getting the opposite, closed doors and silencing all dissent and skepticism, Brexit is being pushed forward by a nationalistic fanaticism that is determined to ride roughshod over all opposition and no, I will NOT accept that happening in my country at all.

Lastly, Brexiters spent years whining so to turn around and tell others not to whine is the height of hypocrisy.

 

[McTallshort]

You do realise that discussion and criticism continuing after a vote is a fundamental part of the democratic process right? Yeah we voted to leave, we have not yet sorted out how we are going to leave and many leavers seem to hold this draconion view that if you were on the "losing" side, your opinion is invalid if it isn't the hardest of hard Brexit. Bit of news, it's my country that is being dragged out against my wishes too and I damn well want a say in it. I may be discussing it on a rugby forum where it won't do anything but large chunks of the recent "fake news" is spread by people online etc and not through normal sources, although I do still intend to write to my MP when we actually have a clue about what the hell the government plan to do besides antagonising everyone.

Brexiters love to say a 2nd vote was fair because the conditions changed from what we voted for, well I say that now. We have gone from leavers overwhelmingly promoting a soft Brexit to full on hard Brexit with extra antagonism and jingoism thrown in. I didn't vote for that and I'm sure many leavers also didn't vote for the line the government have decided to follow. This process more than any other should be open to the public with plenty of debate but we are getting the opposite, closed doors and silencing all dissent and skepticism, Brexit is being pushed forward by a nationalistic fanaticism that is determined to ride roughshod over all opposition and no, I will NOT accept that happening in my country at all.

Lastly, Brexiters spent years whining so to turn around and tell others not to whine is the height of hypocrisy.

When was a so called Soft Brexit ever promoted? Are you saying that people who voted Brexit didnt expect us to leave the single market? Because they did.

 

[ncurd]

When was a so called Soft Brexit ever promoted? Are you saying that people who voted Brexit didnt expect us to leave the single market? Because they did.

I can't find it right now but there was a clip doing the rounds of Farage, Johnson & Gove et. al all saying we would be like Norway/Iceland/Switzerland.

 

[ncurd]

Okay it Huffington Post (which is hugely biased) but they hardly taking the quotes out of context just watch the video.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...arage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce
Gove and Johnson were not involved but I know they all said similar lines.