A Political Thread

[McTallshort]

I just read the article on the BBC but why is it the EU's fault? Serious question.

Well i didnt say it was the fault of the EU although the influx of cheap labour from Eastern Europe has made it far easier for employers such as Amazon, sports direct, Boots, M & S to explot not only young people who dont know better but also the benifits system in terms of tax credits, i was simply pointed out but the much vaunted EU works rights charter isnt worth the paper its written on.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

loving bernies Twitter currently properly going at it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Not saying that rats. But everyone is committed to certain amount of GDP on their defense and most European members don't get near it where the US has been subsiding them for years and given that the biggest threat remains Russia the US are quite rightly asking " why the hell should we keep doing that when you Germany/France/Austria don't want to make good on your commitment. After all the biggest threat is closer to you than us....." it is a fair question

I know you're not - the guy you were responding to was basically saying that though.

 

[j'nuh]

As someone who regards myself as an "unaffiliated" centrist, I definitely feel the left has been worse than the right in the last couple of years.

Both sides are equal in it, but the left are perceived to be worse at it because the right are winning political contests so aren't the ones naval-gazing and self-blaming.

After Brexit, I would say the Brexit side have been far worse at it. e.g.:

CGP Grey put a damn good video together partially on the topic of ****-slinging in debates. Worth watching the whole video, but 5m-5m40s is the most important part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc&t=5m

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Petitions like this are stupid aswell TBH.

https://www.change.org/p/electoral-...make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19

 

[j'nuh]

I'd ordinarily agree, but she did win the most votes. Only America would make the winner the loser. If a quirk in the voting system keeps her out, I'm okay with a quirk in the voting system getting her in.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's not just a quirk though, it's a fundamental part of the system.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It's not just a quirk though, it's a fundamental part of the system.

I know the quirk is the whole system.

And it isn't only an America thing how many votes did UKIP get last election compared to say the SNP and compare the seats.
But that is how the system works currently protest change of the system maybe.

Although no republican will change.

 

[j'nuh]

It's not just a quirk though, it's a fundamental part of the system.

I know but it's a semantic point. I'm more addressing the fact that FPTP in USA has already undermined representative democracy. If everyone's vote should count equally, then Hillary deserves the win because she won more votes. (Better yet, a PR system moving votes from Stein and Johnson.) I find it hard to believe that petitioning the electoral college voters would be in any way wrong (although most likely a waste of time), because IMO, at least in this instance, it's correcting an earlier fault in the democratic process. The whole system is fundamentally flawed and I think focusing in on one area of it misses the bigger picture.

I know the quirk is the whole system.

And it isn't only an America thing how many votes did UKIP get last election compared to say the SNP and compare the seats.
But that is how the system works currently protest change of the system maybe.

Although no republican will change.

Word. I'm not even remotely a fan of UKIP but if you believe in democracy, you ought believe that their voters should be suitably represented in Parliament.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm not saying the petition is wrong.

Just a massive waste of time and a bit pointless.

Would be better petitioning the actual voting system. (Same goes with UK).

 

[j'nuh]

True, but I think it serves the more ulterior purpose of uniting the left/centre-left against Trump. The left certainly need to organise themselves better.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Sorry what? Yeah the electoral college is surprsingly decisive but.

He got 47.5% of the vote
She got 238,000 more votes than he did.

This isn't a thumping victory at all......Christ it's bad enough people saying Brexit was a decisive victory or the Tory's won by miles at last year General election.

It simply isn't true.

Oh really.
So the Republicans were out of office and given no chance for Trump to win the election and now they are in a position where they haven't had this much control across the board since 1928.
You need to do your homework mate.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Oh really.
So the Republicans were out of office and given no chance for Trump to win the election and now they are in a position where they haven't had this much control across the board since 1928.
You need to do your homework mate.

Surprising =/= thumping

Republicans will never lose the house and they already had the senate

 

[RoosTah]

Surprising =/= thumping

Republicans will never lose the house and they already had the senate

exactly. How you read this election really depends on what data you focus on. Sure you can run with the narrative that the country has shifted in favour of non politicians, but equally with around 5 million Obama voters just not turning up its fair to say there was complacency in progressives driven by a combination of outrage that Bernie didn't win the nomination and a media driven belief Clinton couldn't lose

 

[ncurd]

On voting systems, yes petitions are a waste of time especially after the fact.

The electoral college is a joke and represents a time where states would send representative's because instant forms of communication didn't exist. Also votes in Wyoming literally are worth more electoral votes than those in California. However it's enshrined in the constitution of the United States that means changes require this means 2/3 of both Congress and the Senate plus ratification in 3/4 of states. Its never going unless a party get consistently hammered by it then has the power to change it. Like the reason the 22nd amendment came into being (FDR's 4 terms).


The UK we had our chance and bungled it as people believed the lies of people advocating FPTP as the better system (I seriously wonder how many who voted against AV voted for UKIP, I'm guessing a lot). However despite my major gripes about that vote it was decisive (actually decisive as opposed to people using bad language) and it'll be another 15 years before even debate about electoral reform will start in earnest again.

Note I actually think AV+ is the best system or as was originally proposed an AV elected chamber of representative and a fully PR elected chamber.

The EU referendum yes a 6/10 to 7/10 victory for either side should of been enshrined as a mandate otherwise the government should do what it feels is best (I've seen people on both sides agree this after the fact). It wasn't though and even though the poll's 'advisory' nature was supposed to cover this it clearly didn't. But as noted before it was poll Cameroon never thought he'd have (hung parliament would of stopped it) and even then never thought he'd lose, the guy was a class A Muppet who gambled too many times.

 

[McTallshort]

It's possible but again there's ZERO reasons to believe that it has happened other than you wanting it to be.

And yeah you're thick every post you make suggests that.

- - - Updated - - -

They're delusional. But to be honest I'd give Corbyn a higher chance of winning than Trump.

didn't mean to drag this up but there could be hope for Corbyn yet!

 

[ncurd]

didn't mean to drag this up but there could be hope for Corbyn yet!

I've decided everything I said during the election, I didn't actually intend to be factual and have any consequence on what I do now #justliketrump

Seriously though I wouldn't count my chickens about Corbyn now.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Nah Corbyn doesn't have a chance.

Trump has a charisma about him (well in America he does), Sanders has a charisma about him. Corbyn has no charisma about him.

Corbyn isn't really liked by the working class. He has the backing a of the Unions but like Hilary he doesn't have the people IMO.



Watching Sanders more and more, he is def my favourite politician currently I love his desire now to take control of the democrats direction, which is huge considering how much money they get from big businesses for elections.

 

[McTallshort]

Nah Corbyn doesn't have a chance.

Trump has a charisma about him (well in America he does), Sanders has a charisma about him. Corbyn has no charisma about him.

Corbyn isn't really liked by the working class. He has the backing a of the Unions but like Hilary he doesn't have the people IMO.



Watching Sanders more and more, he is def my favourite politician currently I love his desire now to take control of the democrats direction, which is huge considering how much money they get from big businesses for elections.

Yes you have to wonder what would happened if he had gone against Trump. Not sure how it works but how did Clinton get the nomination a head of him?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Clinton has more contacts in the business and high end donations world.

Look at all the celebs she had backing her.

The DNC rigged it basically for her to win as she has the keys to the money. (Also Bernie is prob too anti establishment for them)