A Political Thread pt. 2

[dirty harry]

Both obviously. It was a shoot yourself in the foot idea and we ended up putting 2 in our head.

This is actually probably the best descriptor of it I've ever heard...permission to use this going forward sir?

 

[Welsh Exile]

Of course we don't. I don't want to get back into it, I'm an adult.... I'm fine!

So you think just because you cant go to a Wales game and scream the N word at the top of your lungs that you don't have free speech?

 

[dirty harry]

Like I said yesterday the whole freedom of speech thing is a left hand issue designed to keep people from looking at other things. It's part of the whole culture war piece I wish would stay in the US

I 100% AGREE!!!!

We did it! There are a lot of issues promoted as really important that are designed to distract!

 

[Welsh Exile]

This is actually probably the best descriptor of it I've ever heard...permission to use this going forward sir?

Granted.

 

[McTallshort]

So, was Brexit a failure? I think we can all agree it was, but was it a failure of idea, or was it a failure of execution?

Every single person I speak with agree it was a failure, but the ALL blame the other team for the failure, non organisation of immigration, increasing immigration, and opposition undermining negotiations with the EU...

And the other side playing I told you so, because the dirty little poor people didn't understand what they were voting for.

I find these conversations interesting with a bit of truth from both sides.

Both. It's was failure as an idea because the people pushing it had no real idea what to do if we did leave and a failure in concept because everyone in power knew it would be a disaster and tried to stop it. It was only when Dominic Cummings came on the scene with his puppet Boris that we actually left

 

[ncurd]

I honestly think the history books will not look kindly at Cameron/Osborne. They took us on the route to where we are now. Brexit, Farage, QE etc.

Plus the fact they slowed down a economic recovery post 2007

Kier's plan is "simple" massive reform in how government goes about its business along with "simplflying" planning permission. Whether that works is another matter.

So, was Brexit a failure? I think we can all agree it was, but was it a failure of idea, or was it a failure of execution?

As yourself this, what benefits has there been? What benefits have we not utilised?

Which is why its both because no one has a good answer to either of these questions that is quickly debunked.

 

[dirty harry]

So you think just because you cant go to a Wales game and scream the N word at the top of your lungs that you don't have free speech?

Jesus christ that took a hard right turn...

Do you think the government wants to restrict what we are able to say? Should, I don't know, young autistic girls cowering under stairs in crisis, be allowed to comment that a police officer looks like her nanna without getting dragged away?

Should people in Scotland be allowed to pray in their own homes without the threat of arrest?

Or better still, should you be able to use swear words in public?

 

[Weldit]

So, was Brexit a failure? I think we can all agree it was, but was it a failure of idea, or was it a failure of execution?

Every single person I speak with agree it was a failure, but the ALL blame the other team for the failure, non organisation of immigration, increasing immigration, and opposition undermining negotiations with the EU...

And the other side playing I told you so, because the dirty little poor people didn't understand what they were voting for.

I find these conversations interesting with a bit of truth from both sides.

Yes. We should never have been given the vote as the average person (me included) couldn't possibly understand how it would work and I don't think any government could sort through it all. I believe Osborne/Cameron's policies and actions hurt a lot of people and those people wanted a way out. Farage and his lot, saw this as a golden opportunity and seized the narrative for their own gains.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Jesus christ that took a hard right turn...

Do you think the government wants to restrict what we are able to say? Should, I don't know, young autistic girls cowering under stairs in crisis, be allowed to comment that a police officer looks like her nanna without getting dragged away?

Should people in Scotland be allowed to pray in their own homes without the threat of arrest?

Or better still, should you be able to use swear words in public?

I wouldn't mind betting that you are using these weird outlier cases that, upon further investigation, turn out to be BS

How is your speech impacted on a day to day basis?

I must admit, I am torn about hate speech laws, I can see merits to both sides of the argument. I generally feel immutable characteristics should be protected but I don't feel religion should be included as it's not an immutable characteristic.

Section 5 public order offences can be abused as well but generally are probably enforced ok

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So you think just because you cant go to a Wales game and scream the N word at the top of your lungs that you don't have free speech?

Free speech principles by their very nature are to protect controversial speech, not safe speech.

The grey area is what's deemed to cross from insulting to threatening or defamatory, neither of which are protected.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Based on Rachel from accounts actions, keep pushing pressure on the most vulnerable until they die off and our stats look better...

Hmm, interesting. It's always been clear that if you are in the bottom 40% of income level, living in the UK is significantly better than the US. But the opposite is true for the top 40%

I've recently debated this with my German in laws, they are 100% convinced they have total freedom of speech in Germany, and they are not censored whatsoever, because hate speech is illegal and should be punished, they also believe AFD, and anyone who opposes their beloved CDU views should not be allowed to run for government, and slyly want to rid Germany of Turkish populations, and they see absolutely no irony or fascist thought in that whatsoever.

They also beleive charities shouldn't be a thing, and governments should solve all of societies problems, working a civil job is seen as the highest honour...

We don't talk politics much obviously, I can't here that without wanting to pull my hair out.

Reminds me of my wife's cousins in California. They live in a beautiful home in SoCal worth at least $3 million. They vote straight blue - except maybe the husband who I think is a secret Trump voter - but if you ask them why they recently moved to their new house, they will immediately start ranting about the Armenians taking over. They like me though because when I visit I help fix things (they are both elderly) and my appetite astounds them lol.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Besides "It's the Tories fault", is there a good explanation for the current state of the UK? They simply don't care as you said?

I'm not trying to be ignorant or rude or a loud mouthed America , but the current state of Wales and many former industrial parts around the UK seem economically dire.

I don't really know why but in terms of Irish unification it's an argument regularly overlooked. Ignoring Dublin which is a primate city, Cork, Limerick and Galway all have average incomes that are about 25% higher than Belfast or Derry (and in line or slightly higher with/than larger cities in the UK like Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc...). The relevance in this contrast is that all the above cities are small (mid sized by Irish standards) with reputable universities.

Ireland does have a problem with Dublin providing a huge amount of the employment, many people in good jobs with higher than average salaries are stuck renting due being priced out of buying due to high rent and house prices. However, there are lots of incentives to incorporate outside Dublin that has aided towns around the country where pharma, tech and insurance companies have decided to base operations. I'm monitoring jobs in Galway currently as two large companies in my industry have started branches out there and I'm waiting for legal to follow.

Ireland is really crying out for another city like Belfast and polls regarding unification have been trending in the right direction for quite a time now. It seems like an inevitability if the UK can't improve the North of Ireland and that's not something that has ever been top of Westminster's agenda.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Okay, I have a touchy question for the UK folks because it's something I am genuinely wrestling with.

The UK immigration laws have allowed/welcomed (frame it as you'd like), millions of people from Muslim countries. It appears -- I'm a pure outsider -- here that a vast majority of those people have not assimilated very well.

With the UK's long tradition of classical liberalism, how do you feel about the UK's ability to integrate these people both economically and culturally into these values?*

Last time I was in London, I walked around and found myself in a neighborhood where - hand on my heart - every single woman was wearing a hijab or niqab. It was genuinely surprising because while you might find some places like that in the US, you would also see younger adult women wearing normal American clothing.





*I don't know nearly enough about the whole grooming stuff or any other white-hot cultural issue raging over in Europe.

 

[Which Tyler]

Cameron and his chancellor Osborne pushed austerity on the UK while borrowing massively at the same which led to lack of investment but higher national debt which was fine when interest rates were low buts it's a nightmare now. Also voting for Brexit in 2016 but not getting it done for another 4 years also hit investment. Rishi was the last grown up left after Johnson purged the party, Truss had crashed the economy but the Tories had run their course after 14 years.

FTFY
Probably need to fit Thatcher in there for the collapse of UK manufacturing, and Blair for distrust in politicians and institutions. Though with 2008, Brexit and Covid, both are kinda tinkering around the edges of our current position.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Okay, I have a touchy question for the UK folks because it's something I am genuinely wrestling with.

The UK immigration laws have allowed/welcomed (frame it as you'd like), millions of people from Muslim countries. It appears -- I'm a pure outsider -- here that a vast majority of those people have not assimilated very well.

With the UK's long tradition of classical liberalism, how do you feel about the UK's ability to integrate these people both economically and culturally into these values?*

Last time I was in London, I walked around and found myself in a neighborhood where - hand on my heart - every single woman was wearing a hijab or niqab. It was genuinely surprising because while you might find some places like that in the US, you would also see younger adult women wearing normal American clothing.





*I don't know nearly enough about the whole grooming stuff or any other white-hot cultural issue raging over in Europe.

I think this is a fair question and you could also argue that America does a much better job at assimilating immigrants into American culture.

 

[ncurd]

Free speech principles by their very nature are to protect controversial speech, not safe speech.

Free speech laws are more about the right to criticise or put viewpoint differing to the ruling government without fear of the state.

It has far less to do with speech that is intended to incite violence or inflict hardship. The question is where the line is on hardship.

Like yesterday we'd probably agree your right to free speech does not give the right to create a toxic work environment (While I think about its a lot harder to fire someone in the UK over this as opposed to USA who's firing laws are virtually non-existant)

But what about calling someone a twat on the street?

Its complex.

 

[ChicagoKid]

I think this is a fair question and you could also argue that America does a much better job at assimilating immigrants into American culture.

When you walk into a Costco, spend $500 on a blender, grab a $1.50 hot dog/coke, head to your giant SUV, and start blast Taylor Swift, it's hard not to love America.

 

[Saintjay]

I think this is a fair question and you could also argue that America does a much better job at assimilating immigrants into American culture.

Aren't New Mexico, Texas and Arizona just extensions of Mexico anyway.

Mexicans sees those states like America sees Canada.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Aren't New Mexico, Texas and Arizona just extensions of Mexico anyway.

Mexicans sees those states like America sees Canada.

New Mexico is the closest to Mexico. Texas and Arizona are distinctly American.

Arizona might be the peak of Americana consumerism.

 

[Welsh Exile]

When you walk into a Costco, spend $500 on a blender, grab a $1.50 hot dog/coke, head to your giant SUV, and start blast Taylor Swift, it's hard not to love America.

My 9 year old nephew had to do a school shooting drill at his school in Pittsburgh though so swings and roundabouts.